E85 fuel conversion??

chknhawk · 05-23-2013, 06:08 AM

I was reading something the other day about someone doing an E85 conversion on some car and they said that not only does it burn cleaner but the E85 fuel has a higher octane than normal gasoline. I find this hard to believe but I wanted to pose the question and see if there are any fuel experts who can back this up.

The next question would be if this is true is there an application for the Z. I like more octane and cleaner burn. I'm an N/A guy at the moment and anything I can do to shave off crap and replace it with good stuff I'm all for that.

Any ideas?

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fonzo179 · 05-23-2013, 06:32 AM

If its enviro-friendly and economical, i'm in....just cause i'm a hippie treehugger! lmfao

Chuck33079 · 05-23-2013, 07:10 AM

It has a higher octane, but less energy. You would be able to get it tuned for more power, but mpg would drop. You would also need larger injectors and fuel pump since you need more fuel volume to produce the same energy. It does burn cleaner, but I'd argue it does more harm than good. Our use of corn for fuel has caused the prices of grain exports to rise, thus increasing food prices in developing nations where people already have enough problems preventing starvation. It also raises the prices for livestock feed here, bringing up the cost of meat and dairy. On a macro scale, corn based ethanol isn't as good as you would have led to believe. Plus, it's being heavily subsidized by the government so it's not really as cheap as you would think. Now if we would take a cue from Brazil and use sugar cane based ethanol, those objections go out the window since it essentially uses the wasted parts of the cane for fuel.

MyKindaGuise · 05-23-2013, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

It has a higher octane, but less energy. You would be able to get it tuned for more power, but mpg would drop. You would also need larger injectors and fuel pump since you need more fuel volume to produce the same energy. It does burn cleaner, but I'd argue it does more harm than good. Our use of corn for fuel has caused the prices of grain exports to rise, thus increasing food prices in developing nations where people already have enough problems preventing starvation. It also raises the prices for livestock feed here, bringing up the cost of meat and dairy. On a macro scale, corn based ethanol isn't as good as you would have led to believe. Plus, it's being heavily subsidized by the government so it's not really as cheap as you would think. Now if we would take a cue from Brazil and use sugar cane based ethanol, those objections go out the window since it essentially uses the wasted parts of the cane for fuel.

Pretty much all this. Couldn't be more spot on.
I will be running E85 on my car. However E85 will need some beefy injectors.
E85 is also really cheap here is PA. $3.25/gallon vs my 93 $3.85/gallon

http://www.injectorrx.com/fuel-injector-calculator/

Chuck33079 · 05-23-2013, 07:30 AM

OP, it takes a long time for the cost per gallon savings to pay off the cost of the larger fuel system and lower MPG. This isn't for fuel economy. It would take a long time to break even when you figure the cost of the re-tune and larger fuel system with the lower mpg. You can make more power, but I wouldn't expect more than 10-15whp out of it. It would allow you to run a little more timing. That's about it. If you're boosted, you'll see a much larger increase. Personally, I'd get a good meth kit. That way you see 90% of the benefit of E85, and you can get gas anywhere.

MyKindaGuise · 05-23-2013, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

OP, it takes a long time for the cost per gallon savings to pay off the cost of the larger fuel system and lower MPG.

Actually it isn't cheaper at all. 30% greater consumption would need to be 30% less cost per gallon to break even.

synolimit · 05-23-2013, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyKindaGuise

Actually it isn't cheaper at all. 30% greater consumption would need to be 30% less cost per gallon to break even.

Correct.

E85 is amazing but only for turbo cars to run a lot more boost and timing than regular gas because it burns cooler and the higher octane (about 103). But on a NA car I really don't think you're going to see that much power from a degree or two of timing. You might get 5-10hp but to cost so much in fuel is dumb! Plus with our cars not being setup for e85 there's no way to tell if it will eat through hoses and seals. Subis are ok to run it with no issues but Mitsubishis don't like it and it eats the hoses and turns and clogs everything with black liquid rubber! As for injectors and pumps you'd have to know the IDC if you have enough head room. I'd be willing to bet these cars have plenty and you won't need to upgrade since I doubt nissan put injectors in the car right at the max IDC. And since we aren't turbo'd the fuel consumption won't be as high for us since they target about 10.8-11.2 A/F ratio.

A comparison on a subi cost...

Normally I did 25mpg at say $3.80 a gallon of 93 for a 15 gallon tank. That's $57 a fill up for 375 miles. E85 at a 30% loss of mpg we got 17.5mpg. Yes E85 costs less but at $3.30 a gallon for $49.5 a tank you only go 262.5 miles. For e85 to match 93 for the same driven distance you need an extra 112.5 miles or 6.43 gallons which costs $21.2. So 375 miles on 93=$57, 375 miles on e85=$70.7.

Then there's the issue like in ohio only having a few e85 pumps. If you run out of gas and can't find a station you're f'd because gas will be running you 30% richer or you're stuck till you get picked up.

luigi90210 · 05-23-2013, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

but Mitsubishis don't like it and it eats the hoses and turns and clogs everything with black liquid rubber

that might be true with the evo but on the 2G DSM Eclipse, you can keep stock lines and seals as long as you cycled out the fuel every few days or so, even with upgraded lines, E85 will still rot them out if the car is left to sit for a while

synolimit · 05-23-2013, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luigi90210

that might be true with the evo but on the 2G DSM Eclipse, you can keep stock lines and seals as long as you cycled out the fuel every few days or so, even with upgraded lines, E85 will still rot them out if the car is left to sit for a while

Lol but then that means the 2G dsm can't handle e85 just like evos because no subis do this. People have run it for thousands of miles without issue.

Chuck33079 · 05-23-2013, 07:32 AM

FYI OP, octane is not a measure of energy. It's a measure of resistance to preignition/detonation. That's why you can run more timing advance.

DEpointfive0 · 05-23-2013, 07:37 AM

It doesn't burn cleaner. That was the original thought, but they recently found out that they screwed up.

Chuck33079 · 05-23-2013, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEpointfive0

It doesn't burn cleaner. That was the original thought, but they recently found out that they screwed up.

Really? You mean that in our government's haste to give some money back to big agriculture under the guise of reducing foreing oil dependance, they made a mistake in their math/fudged the numbers? I wish I was surprised.

synolimit · 05-23-2013, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEpointfive0

It doesn't burn cleaner. That was the original thought, but they recently found out that they screwed up.

I heard it burned differently. For example less hydrocarbons but more Ozone which is still very bad! This what you heard too?

Chuck33079 · 05-23-2013, 07:54 AM

True. My math suffers in the morning before coffee.

theDreamer · 05-23-2013, 08:11 AM

Also be warned a lot of gas stations that once carried e85 are now stopping because of low demand but many times still reported as having it.

05-23-2013, 06:08 AM	#1 (permalink)
chknhawk Track Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Kentucky Posts: 541 Drives: Like a batouttahell! Rep Power: 14	E85 fuel conversion?? I was reading something the other day about someone doing an E85 conversion on some car and they said that not only does it burn cleaner but the E85 fuel has a higher octane than normal gasoline. I find this hard to believe but I wanted to pose the question and see if there are any fuel experts who can back this up. The next question would be if this is true is there an application for the Z. I like more octane and cleaner burn. I'm an N/A guy at the moment and anything I can do to shave off crap and replace it with good stuff I'm all for that. Any ideas? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD __________________ \| AEM \| INVIDIA \| GREDDY \| STANCE \| NISMO \| SETRAB \| STOPTECH \| HAWK \| TOYO \| HANKOOK \| BRIDE (wishlist) \|

05-23-2013, 07:10 AM	#3 (permalink)
Chuck33079 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 12,265 Drives: 2011 370ztt Rep Power: 29539	It has a higher octane, but less energy. You would be able to get it tuned for more power, but mpg would drop. You would also need larger injectors and fuel pump since you need more fuel volume to produce the same energy. It does burn cleaner, but I'd argue it does more harm than good. Our use of corn for fuel has caused the prices of grain exports to rise, thus increasing food prices in developing nations where people already have enough problems preventing starvation. It also raises the prices for livestock feed here, bringing up the cost of meat and dairy. On a macro scale, corn based ethanol isn't as good as you would have led to believe. Plus, it's being heavily subsidized by the government so it's not really as cheap as you would think. Now if we would take a cue from Brazil and use sugar cane based ethanol, those objections go out the window since it essentially uses the wasted parts of the cane for fuel. tibal, G37Sam, ChrisSlicks and 5 others like this. __________________ 2011 MB Touring-Sport-6sp-Nav/GTM TT/FI TT TDX/JTran/Kosmic/Eibach/Hotchkis/SPC/CSF/RPS/SoThatsWhereAllMyMoneyWent

05-23-2013, 07:30 AM	#5 (permalink)
Chuck33079 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 12,265 Drives: 2011 370ztt Rep Power: 29539	OP, it takes a long time for the cost per gallon savings to pay off the cost of the larger fuel system and lower MPG. This isn't for fuel economy. It would take a long time to break even when you figure the cost of the re-tune and larger fuel system with the lower mpg. You can make more power, but I wouldn't expect more than 10-15whp out of it. It would allow you to run a little more timing. That's about it. If you're boosted, you'll see a much larger increase. Personally, I'd get a good meth kit. That way you see 90% of the benefit of E85, and you can get gas anywhere. olddudesrule likes this. __________________ 2011 MB Touring-Sport-6sp-Nav/GTM TT/FI TT TDX/JTran/Kosmic/Eibach/Hotchkis/SPC/CSF/RPS/SoThatsWhereAllMyMoneyWent

05-23-2013, 07:32 AM	#10 (permalink)
Chuck33079 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 12,265 Drives: 2011 370ztt Rep Power: 29539	FYI OP, octane is not a measure of energy. It's a measure of resistance to preignition/detonation. That's why you can run more timing advance. gomer_110 likes this. __________________ 2011 MB Touring-Sport-6sp-Nav/GTM TT/FI TT TDX/JTran/Kosmic/Eibach/Hotchkis/SPC/CSF/RPS/SoThatsWhereAllMyMoneyWent

05-23-2013, 07:37 AM	#11 (permalink)
DEpointfive0 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SoCal Posts: 14,824 Drives: a lot Rep Power: 17152	It doesn't burn cleaner. That was the original thought, but they recently found out that they screwed up. G37Sam likes this. __________________ Do YOU want to know what/where I got my username from? ( Click to show/hide ) NSFW due to language:

05-23-2013, 06:32 AM	#2 (permalink)
fonzo179 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2012 Location: A Fantasy World Posts: 1,707 Drives: 2014 Audi Q5 3.0T Rep Power: 20	If its enviro-friendly and economical, i'm in....just cause i'm a hippie treehugger! lmfao

05-23-2013, 07:54 AM	#14 (permalink)
Chuck33079 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 12,265 Drives: 2011 370ztt Rep Power: 29539	True. My math suffers in the morning before coffee. __________________ 2011 MB Touring-Sport-6sp-Nav/GTM TT/FI TT TDX/JTran/Kosmic/Eibach/Hotchkis/SPC/CSF/RPS/SoThatsWhereAllMyMoneyWent

05-23-2013, 08:11 AM	#15 (permalink)
theDreamer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 30,879 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 4211	Also be warned a lot of gas stations that once carried e85 are now stopping because of low demand but many times still reported as having it. __________________ theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

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