NA: 342/275. Anyone higher?

Jordo! · 11-05-2012, 12:25 PM

I haven't followed every post here, but I it seems as though there is still debate over the value of having access to the VVEL maps.

Here's a simple way to determine their value empirically.

Re-load the previous tune where fuel and timing was optimized for Mike's set-up using stock VVEL mapping. Fine tune as needed -- leave VVEL alone. dyno three runs. Take the best.

Then load the tune with optimized fuel, spark , and VVEL tuning. Fine tune as needed on all relevant maps. Take three dyno runs and report the best.

Compare and contrast -- question answered.

If Mike makes another 10-12 whp (or more) at points throughout the rev range when adjusting all three parameters together as opposed to just two, clearly having access to the VVEL maps is helpful for extracting maximum power.

John@Z1 · 11-05-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

I haven't followed every post here, but I it seems as though there is still debate over the value of having access to the VVEL maps.

Here's a simple way to determine their value empirically.

Re-load the previous tune where fuel and timing was optimized for Mike's set-up using stock VVEL mapping. Fine tune as needed -- leave VVEL alone. dyno three runs. Take the best.

Then load the tune with optimized fuel, spark , and VVEL tuning. Fine tune as needed on all relevant maps. Take three dyno runs and report the best.

Compare and contrast -- question answered.

If Mike makes another 10-12 whp (or more) at points throughout the rev range when adjusting all three parameters together as opposed to just two, clearly having access to the VVEL maps is helpful for extracting maximum power.

I tuned the vehicle and I'm telling all of you this power was not gained in VVEL tuning alone. And yes VVEL is helpful but(I seem to have to say this next part a lot) please don't think this is in VVEL tuning alone. Mike has pretty much shared his mods with everyone. There is no need to perform the runs you just mentioned as the VVEL tuning we performed did not net very high numbers(but hey, don't take my word for it I only tuned the car).

Jordo! · 11-05-2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John@Z1

I tuned the vehicle and I'm telling all of you this power was not gained in VVEL tuning alone. And yes VVEL is helpful but(I seem to have to say this next part a lot) please don't think this is in VVEL tuning alone. Mike has pretty much shared his mods with everyone. There is no need to perform the runs you just mentioned as the VVEL tuning we performed did not net very high numbers(but hey, don't take my word for it I only tuned the car).

Obviously the gains are primarily due to other bolt-on mods -- particularly the headers... I don't think anyone here thought 30+ whp came just from valve timing adjustment on a NA car.

What I'm trying to determine is the approximate degree of improvement with this set-up achieved from tuning alone with the ability to ALSO tune VVEL.

Can you give us more detail on that. For example, by how much were you able to increase max lift? Are there limits built into the new software (or constrained by the ECU) to prevent causing physical damage?

I'm not questioning your word -- I'm seeking more detailed information regarding the new tuning parameter...

Mike · 11-05-2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Obviously the gains are primarily due to other bolt-on mods -- particularly the headers... I don't think anyone here thought 30+ whp came just from valve timing adjustment on a NA car.

What I'm trying to determine is the approximate degree of improvement with this set-up achieved from tuning alone with the ability to ALSO tune VVEL.

Can you give us more detail on that. For example, by how much were you able to increase max lift? Are there limits built into the new software (or constrained by the ECU) to prevent causing physical damage?

I'm not questioning your word -- I'm seeking more detailed information regarding the new tuning parameter...

I would suggest you call Z1 and talk to Jon directly. I can't say for sure, but I know if I was the tuner, I wouldn't post what I had done for public consumption. There are too many shops that steal and copy other peoples actual products and certainly intellectual property too.

gaveup · 11-20-2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

I would suggest you call Z1 and talk to Jon directly. I can't say for sure, but I know if I was the tuner, I wouldn't post what I had done for public consumption. There are too many shops that steal and copy other peoples actual products and certainly intellectual property too.

That's a good point, but from a consumer (mine) standpoint it sucks. Because what they are doing tune-wise at Z1, benefits me about none in South Florida, or almost anywhere that isn't within a reasonable driving distance.

Sure, there are always email tunes (and I am a huge fan of those), but you'll find most people don't like going that route. So if a shop 600-1000 miles away from Z1 offers tuning that is comparable, I don't see that taking a huge chunk (if any) of their customer base as the majority of the people they tune will be "local" to them.

Coming from a WRX, the idea of people not sharing setups or tuning information on this forum and other Z sites was a hard pill for me to swallow. You can log on to any WRX/STI forum right now, post your map/logs and have professional/knowledgeable tuners offer advice how how and where to clean it up. Make the change, log it and upload your results and the same people will have absolutely NO problems offering their help.

XwChriswX · 11-05-2012, 01:38 PM

Mike · 11-05-2012, 03:38 PM

Lets just get the remaining few sets of these headers sold and installed and see what the numbers say!

threeseventy · 11-05-2012, 05:07 PM

^ THERE IT IS... GLWS guys!

SPOHN · 11-05-2012, 05:56 PM

Keeping it simple I just like the fact of a mod that produces great power and weight savings

Jordo! · 11-05-2012, 07:38 PM

^^ Fair enough... but I was really only looking for general info, not actual maps or specific values on anything...

More like, "we added more overlap lower in the rev range to build torque and raised lift by several degrees over the OEM tune approaching redline..." and "yes -- if you go to far, the ECU will set a CEL, so you can't accidentally hit the pistons with the valves from the tune alone" or whatever they did/discovered. (obviously I am just speculating on all of that -- none of that may be accurate).

The specific settings in anyone's map will vary from set up to set up and need to be empirically determined on a dyno anyway.

I mean no harm -- I just crave knowledge

Actually -- just knowing when uprev will make these maps available to end users would be great! Anyone know?

gabe3d · 11-05-2012, 09:59 PM

I agree that it's probably advantageous to Z1 to keep their findings however small or large they are to themselves since not many tuners have had a chance to delve into this yet.

John@Z1, i don't think it is divulging too much information, but would it be possible for you to answer my previous post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe3d

Thanks for sharing this piece of information. From eyeballing Mike's and your dyno there isn't much difference in the power delivery in regards to how it slopes and how far it extends. Mike's car seems to have a nice vertical bump of a few wtq everywhere, perhaps due to better scavenging from the exhaust manifold, which later translates into that slight edge in whp. Would it be possible for you to overlay the two graphs? Also, from a scale of 1-10 how far along do you think mike's tune is in regards to VVEL tuning?
...
Not knowing what can be accomplished by osiris in tuning in that department, i can only ask the experts like Z1 to see how they feel the progress might evolve from here on out since they've been exposed to the capabilities.

John@Z1 · 11-06-2012, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe3d

I agree that it's probably advantageous to Z1 to keep their findings however small or large they are to themselves since not many tuners have had a chance to delve into this yet.

John@Z1, i don't think it is divulging too much information, but would it be possible for you to answer my previous post.

I would much rather you call me at 770-838-7777 ext 311. We'll try to overlay the runs on the next vehicle due to not recalling where I started tuning VVEL on Mike's car. The next tuning session will be saved a little different to be a little more informative to check over the good and the bad.

We plan on tuning a 370Z this week that started life at around 273rwhp and now it has right over 7,000 miles with Momentum headers, Test pipes and Gen 3 intakes(stock cat back). We will keep you guys in the loop.

leighspped · 11-06-2012, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John@Z1

I would much rather you call me at 770-838-7777 ext 311. We'll try to overlay the runs on the next vehicle due to not recalling where I started tuning VVEL on Mike's car. The next tuning session will be saved a little different to be a little more informative to check over the good and the bad.

We plan on tuning a 370Z this week that started life at around 273rwhp and now it has right over 7,000 miles with Momentum headers, Test pipes and Gen 3 intakes(stock cat back). We will keep you guys in the loop.

do you have the temps for the 273rwhp?

John@Z1 · 11-06-2012, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighspped

do you have the temps for the 273rwhp?

No, that was dynoed long ago. We will perform a before run on tuning and document the runs as other changes are made.

theDreamer · 11-06-2012, 11:06 AM

Congrats Mike on some great numbers.
Any plans to do more engine work to see what else is left to be made N/A with the VQ37?

11-05-2012, 12:25 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	I haven't followed every post here, but I it seems as though there is still debate over the value of having access to the VVEL maps. Here's a simple way to determine their value empirically. Re-load the previous tune where fuel and timing was optimized for Mike's set-up using stock VVEL mapping. Fine tune as needed -- leave VVEL alone. dyno three runs. Take the best. Then load the tune with optimized fuel, spark , and VVEL tuning. Fine tune as needed on all relevant maps. Take three dyno runs and report the best. Compare and contrast -- question answered. If Mike makes another 10-12 whp (or more) at points throughout the rev range when adjusting all three parameters together as opposed to just two, clearly having access to the VVEL maps is helpful for extracting maximum power. __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it.

11-05-2012, 01:38 PM	#6 (permalink)
XwChriswX WFLYIDNNE Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: In The Fastlane Posts: 50,648 Drives: 02 GDB WRX Rep Power: 452	John@Z1, b1adesofcha0s, SS_Firehawk and 2 others like this. __________________ Bonnie - Stage 2, Audio build coming this fall! R.I.P. Abby 3/29/10 - 3/30/14

11-05-2012, 03:38 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2186	Lets just get the remaining few sets of these headers sold and installed and see what the numbers say! John@Z1 likes this. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

11-05-2012, 05:56 PM	#9 (permalink)
SPOHN A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Covington, GA Age: 46 Posts: 14,844 Drives: Waiting on next Z Rep Power: 222	Keeping it simple I just like the fact of a mod that produces great power and weight savings John@Z1 and Spikuh like this. __________________

11-05-2012, 07:38 PM	#10 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	^^ Fair enough... but I was really only looking for general info, not actual maps or specific values on anything... More like, "we added more overlap lower in the rev range to build torque and raised lift by several degrees over the OEM tune approaching redline..." and "yes -- if you go to far, the ECU will set a CEL, so you can't accidentally hit the pistons with the valves from the tune alone" or whatever they did/discovered. (obviously I am just speculating on all of that -- none of that may be accurate). The specific settings in anyone's map will vary from set up to set up and need to be empirically determined on a dyno anyway. I mean no harm -- I just crave knowledge Actually -- just knowing when uprev will make these maps available to end users would be great! Anyone know? __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it.

11-05-2012, 05:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
threeseventy Track Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 600 Drives: Opinion Rep Power: 16	^ THERE IT IS... GLWS guys!

11-06-2012, 11:06 AM	#15 (permalink)
theDreamer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 30,879 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 4211	Congrats Mike on some great numbers. Any plans to do more engine work to see what else is left to be made N/A with the VQ37? __________________ theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

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