Stay NA or go to the Dark Side?

edub370 · 09-05-2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

I kinda like this option because it requires less modification than the others. I can keep my existing parts and install these with some valvetrain upgrades and retune. I would definitely take it to a bigger shop that knows their way around the Z compared to my local place. I would imagine maybe around $4,000 with parts, install, and tune

TBD....

i would say whoever takes the plunge on the jun cams will be opening a whole bag of worms. BUT i would love to see what they do on a car. BUT i voted gtm tt....

oro · 09-06-2012, 05:13 PM

I voted TT but fir the cost of opening and messing with the heads you would have near parts cost for a stroker motor, that would be guaranteed NA power, but the most cost effective approach is boost.

SS_Firehawk · 09-06-2012, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oro

I voted TT but fir the cost of opening and messing with the heads you would have near parts cost for a stroker motor, that would be guaranteed NA power, but the most cost effective approach is boost.

Lol, I was looking on GTM's site on their stroker motors. They had long blocks available installed for a bit under 10k. They had an option for high compression too. They said it was for the VHR, but the description was all VQ35DE. I also saw an option to just buy everything needed for it, but that still entails a lot of work to the block (boring, balancing etc) Something like that, you just can't click add to cart button and have the full solution.

What really peaked my interest was when they said it's rated up to 600hp NA, but again, it was vague and saw no proof. I do agree that turbo's are the easiest and cost effective way to make a bunch of power. It would still be pretty damn awesome to be pushing 400+ whp without snails. Oh, good idea fairy appeared. JUN cams on a bored out stroker motor. If it's torn apart, would it be that much more to implement? And I can keep my existing parts. So many choices. Luckily I have plenty of time to figure out the way ahead.

Edit: I think I'm going to PM GTM on the gazillion options that they have. I may be shooting past the moon with this one lol.

SS_Firehawk · 09-07-2012, 05:18 PM

So I've been doing a bit of research on the power bands of superchargers and turbochargers. Consider this me thinking out loud. It doesn't matter if the hp ratings are the same on the supercharger and the turbo kit. The turbo kit makes way more power under the curve and the torque output is just glorious. Someone needs to do an overlay of a 500whp dyno with a supercharger and a turbo. TT's cost serious coin, but they are definitely worth it.

SS_Firehawk · 09-07-2012, 10:49 PM

Anyone reading the GTM twin supercharger thread, Mike just confirmed that long tube headers will fit and the oil coler can most likely find a place as well. I know they have a TT kit with a similar intercooler setup up front that should be wrapping up as well.

SS_Firehawk · 09-08-2012, 11:59 AM

I'm still trying to figure out why SC's lose boost with headers compared to stock stuff. Everything is before the intakes. From what I can see, it would be a huge benefit as is will reduce back pressure and increase the velocity of the exhaust. Not only that, but shouldn't the scavenging effect of the headers have a positive impact in preventing back flow into the combustion chambers? I'm wondering if it's because there is decreased back pressure throughout the combustion process. This means that there is less resistance as the supercharger is compressing the air into the intake manifold. I'm also assuming this does not affect positive displacement superchargers. Can someone tell me if I'm on the right track? I've been trying to google my a$$ off and haven't found a concrete answer besides that it happens.

Edit: Didn't want to throw another new post down.

So I talked to the Wife about my intentions. I threw out $10,000 and she didn't flinch. She said she doesn't care what I get so long as everything we need is done. IE new floors, countertop, paint, back yard, bedroom set. So I'm in the clear.

So far, the poll is kinda close, but still not enough votes for anything decisive. So far, GTM TT is in the lead. I also emailed them regarding options, as they are probably the best source of information.

Telephone · 09-09-2012, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Edit: Added a new poll up top, please feel free to explain your choice

Alright guys, so I'm at a fork in the road with my Z. I'm in Afghanistan again, this time as a contractor. With that being said, I now have some cash to put into my Z. As you can see from my sig, I have a lot of parts on it already. The problem is, it is not making the power that I thought it would or should. It's currently at 306 whp and 236lb ft of tq. With the Motordyne manifold, it was 304 whp and 243 lb ft of tq. At it's highest (end of march), it was at 316 whp and 248 lb ft of tq. I replaced the precat passenger side 02 sensor because it had some funny readings, or not reading at all. Still, with the mods t has, on a dynojet, I was guesstimating in the 320-330 range in hp after tuning. I know there is something else going on with it that I haven't found yet, I just don't know where to look anymore.

Here are some mods that will be going on the car regardless of what I choose to do. I want it to perform regardless if I take it on a track day or cruise around the streets of Las Vegas.
New flywheel and clutch | new rear diff | new sway bars and coil over setup | brake lines, fluid, and pads.
I do want to replace the front bumper with a Stillen unit or something similar, to improve airflow into my intakes and brakes (Stillens brake cooling kit). I am also looking at a hood replacement to help vent some of the crazy heat coming out of the engine compartment.

Now the big question that I have is should I stay NA, or go some type of forced induction? If I'm sticking NA, I seiously need to find a way to push at least. 350whp. It's not because I want a bigger Z penis, it's because I want it to stay in line with the current and future crop of performance cars coming to market that the Z competes with.

If I were to continue going NA, I'll most likely be looking at the JUN cams. Anything else would cost an astronomical amount of money.If I were to go with a supercharger, I've been taking a serious look at GTM's twincharger setup they've been building. The three big questions with that setup is will my big a$$ oil cooler fit with their intercoolers, and will my headers fit with their system. Lastly, is I have NST pulley's installed, I'm not sure how it would hold up with a SC's running on it. And lastly, if I were to look at a turbo setup, I prefer twins. With dual intakes and a V6, symmetrically it makes sense. Again, big question is will my 72 row oil cooler fit. Problem is, I will have to remove the headers. With the turbo and supercharger option, I'm not chasing numbers. I know they will perform. With the exhaust still being a Y pipe, and having 18" resonators, I'm thinking that would have to be replaced with something else as well.

So what I need from you all and your combined brainpower, expertise, experience, and opinions, is what option should I go with. Anyone can chime in, excluding Trolls and flammers. The build won't happen for a while, but parts would start ordering while I'm out here. At the earliest, the build will start is i January, at the latest, probably in April or May next year. And thanks all in advance for your help with this.

Pay the car off first.

Realize that you're on the internet. So discuss your goals and concerns with experienced engine builders/tuners only. Tell them exactly how YOU want your drivetrain to perform? Don't just talk peak HP numbers.

Consider this:
More power...potentially more problems. Do you want to have fun, or have headaches? Have spare cash for a blown motor/tranny as Nissan won't cover it. What if your wife gets pregnant...what happens to the Z?

In the end...is it really worth it? You could always put that money towards your house or kid's college fund. FI or not...you still drive a Z. You win either way.

andre12031948 · 09-09-2012, 08:56 AM

Your car has very nice H.P. but I don't see your name on the top 1/4 mle time list. You can't & I'm sure you don't race on the street. So what will another 200 H.P. do for you?

Reminds me of when this young guy showed me a very high H.P. dyno sheet. I was impressed, so I asked him how quick is the car. He said that person doesn't race, and besides the engine blew up on the dyno.

So why are you showing me this piece of paper? I asked

SS_Firehawk · 09-09-2012, 11:22 AM

My Wife won't be getting pregnant by me any time soon, so if that occurs, there are bigger issues at hand. I emailed GTM for assistance. We don't have kids either

But as I've posted before, it's not something that I can do any time soon. I already have a plan in place, both the Z and Maxima are on the list of things to pay off. As well as my Wife current school debt. The money to be used on this endeavor is a bonus I'll be receiving at the end of my contract. I appreciate the financial concern, and that's exactly why I talked to the Wifey about it.

Regarding Andre's comment. I don't take it to the 1/4 track very often. I last went in April and I'm no John Force. What I do intend to do thoughis go out to Sprint Mountain Raceway, Fontana, Laguna Seca, and some other places my buddies are going to take their Z's, GTR's, S200's, EVO's etc and let loose. So I have my places to take it out and romp around. And what does it matter what 200hp will do for me? It's my car, my money, and it's for my pleasure. We all drive Sports cars here, we bought them for entertainment, not for practicality.

And lastly, I'm not a number chaser, but it infuriates me that I spent $5.5k on parts, labor, and tuning, and I gained 36whp as of where the car sits right now. That is not normal, and should have been around another 20whp. What this is is my way of guaranteeing that I get what I originally intended, and then some, just because I can.

I didn't open this thread taking everything as gospel. I wanted some input, for ideas, debate, just like now (Thank you BTW for this

I enjoy healthy arguments), I'm gauging interest. I'm not ignorant in the least bit with this platform. I do A LOT of research on my own and gain a full understanding before I pull the trigger on anything with this car. I'm not investing anything into the car, I'm dumping money into it, as long as I understand that, my Wife understands that, and I can afford it and any technicalities, I'm good with that.

oro · 09-09-2012, 03:48 PM

I think intention wise the new GTM TD06 turbo kit would fit the bill and my own for that matter, it's a good amount of power before overkilling.

I understand the want for an NA setup and I wouldn't want to try to turn you away from it as it would be a very different and enjoyable build, but from the money standpoint a simple bolt on turbo option will be the best per-cost ratio.

Adam from Z1auto did a build back when I had my 350Z where he did an NA non stroker setup, but that car screamed with Tomei 268 cams and 11.3 compression (where I believe most of the power bump came from) and full bolt ons. That being said the DE motor was never as potent as our current motor nor did it have the thickness of powerband. After his build his power was comparable to our cars bolt ons, pushing 303whp. I dyno'd my stock 350Z at 228whp, so being an *** and assuming that the VQ37 is as advanced over the 350 as it is, I wouldn't be surprised to see 400 or just under 400 to the wheels.

Factoring all the parts in, going as budget as you can on it, you would probably be pretty close to 15g's into the motor build at that point...and as stated before a GTM TT will sit you at 430 to the wheels pretty easily and without breaking a sweat.

I don't think it's wrong to go for numbers personally as you will be enjoying the car in whatever form you choose, it is your car and if you want 500hp you can enjoy that just knowing it is lurking underneath your foot.

zguynate · 09-09-2012, 05:34 PM

Personally I would go with the BP turbo kit when Sasha releases it. They have proven themselves on the 350z's. The NA route is going to be really expensive with minor gains. Cost to performance, FI is going to be the better bet.

The boosted performance kit is a single twin scroll turbo kit that is very DIY friendly. Maintenance would be very easy if something should break. Not to mention Sasha is on top of his customer service game.

Cmike2780 · 09-09-2012, 06:03 PM

It really depends on what you want this car to be OP. Your most demanding setting is being able to get this on the track without problems. If that's the case, keep it NA and focus on making it reliable and adjustable all around. Wheels, tires, suspension, fuel system, weight reduction, brakes etc etc. Massive power is a lot of fun, but its kind of limited to where you can use it. Pushing the stock engine internals on a track with any type of forced induction is a bit risky, so you should pretty much account for double your budget should the unforeseen happen. You hear a lot about cars on the forum going twin turbo's, but rarely hear about those that trashed thier engines... which have been known to happen. I know it's tempting to want to be the guy with the most HP, but there's always going to be another guy with more. You just really need enough for what you use the car for.

SS_Firehawk · 09-10-2012, 06:32 PM

Thanks for the replies. As for taking this car to the track, I'm definitely concerned over reliability and temps. I feel I can work around the temp issues. The oil cooler I have has way more than enough to cool oil on a boosted motor. I think an upgraded radiator and fan unit will handle the fluid temps fairly well. Now I feel that different types of boosted applications are going to affect some component of the vehicle more than the other. Turbo's will definitely put a lot more stress on the driveline. The amount of torque they create and how it builds it's power is not linear like an NA Z powerband. There is a torque surge and hp starts shooting for the moon. Does anyone know how 5th and 6th gears handle this power on a MT tranny? Now with the supercharger, it puts more stress on the motor as it's belt driven and requires it to spin faster to reach similar power levels as a turbo. Centrifugal superchargers build power very smoothly, but it's not an off the line rocket like a roots type or a fast spooling turbo/s.

SS_Firehawk · 09-10-2012, 07:06 PM

Speaking of NA, I saw that GTM sells a 500bhp NA VHR motor, ticket price of that sexy beast is 20k+. It's a competition engine and cost competition money, but I still eye raped it for about 45 minutes.

Edit: Via email, Mike @ GTM is recommending the twin charger setup based on my budget, mods and goals. It makes sense, and it was a setup I showed interest in. We shall see. On the polls, forum members have TT as 1st, JUN cams and NA 2nd, and then the twin charger 3rd.

edub370 · 09-11-2012, 09:39 AM

has anyone (individual or company) done an NA 370 build...

View Poll Results: Which path should I go (can choose both FI kit and FI exhaust option [option 6])
NA with JUN Cams and existing mods	22	25.29%
GTM Twin Supercharger with existing exhaust	17	19.54%
Greddy Twin Turbo kit	10	11.49%
GTM Twin Turbo kit	25	28.74%
Fast Intentions Twin Turbo Kit	13	14.94%
Forced Induction with new exhaust designed for F.I.	10	11.49%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

09-07-2012, 05:18 PM	#19 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	So I've been doing a bit of research on the power bands of superchargers and turbochargers. Consider this me thinking out loud. It doesn't matter if the hp ratings are the same on the supercharger and the turbo kit. The turbo kit makes way more power under the curve and the torque output is just glorious. Someone needs to do an overlay of a 500whp dyno with a supercharger and a turbo. TT's cost serious coin, but they are definitely worth it. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

09-07-2012, 10:49 PM	#20 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	Anyone reading the GTM twin supercharger thread, Mike just confirmed that long tube headers will fit and the oil coler can most likely find a place as well. I know they have a TT kit with a similar intercooler setup up front that should be wrapping up as well. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

09-08-2012, 11:59 AM	#21 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	I'm still trying to figure out why SC's lose boost with headers compared to stock stuff. Everything is before the intakes. From what I can see, it would be a huge benefit as is will reduce back pressure and increase the velocity of the exhaust. Not only that, but shouldn't the scavenging effect of the headers have a positive impact in preventing back flow into the combustion chambers? I'm wondering if it's because there is decreased back pressure throughout the combustion process. This means that there is less resistance as the supercharger is compressing the air into the intake manifold. I'm also assuming this does not affect positive displacement superchargers. Can someone tell me if I'm on the right track? I've been trying to google my a$$ off and haven't found a concrete answer besides that it happens. Edit: Didn't want to throw another new post down. So I talked to the Wife about my intentions. I threw out $10,000 and she didn't flinch. She said she doesn't care what I get so long as everything we need is done. IE new floors, countertop, paint, back yard, bedroom set. So I'm in the clear. So far, the poll is kinda close, but still not enough votes for anything decisive. So far, GTM TT is in the lead. I also emailed them regarding options, as they are probably the best source of information. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction Last edited by SS_Firehawk; 09-08-2012 at 02:59 PM.

09-09-2012, 08:56 AM	#23 (permalink)
andre12031948 Banned Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: monticello new york 127 Posts: 1,095 Drives: 08 350z black 6m/t Rep Power: 0	I just never understood this & no answer requered. Your car has very nice H.P. but I don't see your name on the top 1/4 mle time list. You can't & I'm sure you don't race on the street. So what will another 200 H.P. do for you? Reminds me of when this young guy showed me a very high H.P. dyno sheet. I was impressed, so I asked him how quick is the car. He said that person doesn't race, and besides the engine blew up on the dyno. So why are you showing me this piece of paper? I asked Last edited by andre12031948; 09-09-2012 at 08:58 AM.

09-06-2012, 05:13 PM	#17 (permalink)
oro Base Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 192 Drives: G37S Rep Power: 15	I voted TT but fir the cost of opening and messing with the heads you would have near parts cost for a stroker motor, that would be guaranteed NA power, but the most cost effective approach is boost.

09-09-2012, 11:22 AM	#24 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	My Wife won't be getting pregnant by me any time soon, so if that occurs, there are bigger issues at hand. I emailed GTM for assistance. We don't have kids either But as I've posted before, it's not something that I can do any time soon. I already have a plan in place, both the Z and Maxima are on the list of things to pay off. As well as my Wife current school debt. The money to be used on this endeavor is a bonus I'll be receiving at the end of my contract. I appreciate the financial concern, and that's exactly why I talked to the Wifey about it. Regarding Andre's comment. I don't take it to the 1/4 track very often. I last went in April and I'm no John Force. What I do intend to do thoughis go out to Sprint Mountain Raceway, Fontana, Laguna Seca, and some other places my buddies are going to take their Z's, GTR's, S200's, EVO's etc and let loose. So I have my places to take it out and romp around. And what does it matter what 200hp will do for me? It's my car, my money, and it's for my pleasure. We all drive Sports cars here, we bought them for entertainment, not for practicality. And lastly, I'm not a number chaser, but it infuriates me that I spent $5.5k on parts, labor, and tuning, and I gained 36whp as of where the car sits right now. That is not normal, and should have been around another 20whp. What this is is my way of guaranteeing that I get what I originally intended, and then some, just because I can. I didn't open this thread taking everything as gospel. I wanted some input, for ideas, debate, just like now (Thank you BTW for this I enjoy healthy arguments), I'm gauging interest. I'm not ignorant in the least bit with this platform. I do A LOT of research on my own and gain a full understanding before I pull the trigger on anything with this car. I'm not investing anything into the car, I'm dumping money into it, as long as I understand that, my Wife understands that, and I can afford it and any technicalities, I'm good with that. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

09-09-2012, 03:48 PM	#25 (permalink)
oro Base Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 192 Drives: G37S Rep Power: 15	I think intention wise the new GTM TD06 turbo kit would fit the bill and my own for that matter, it's a good amount of power before overkilling. I understand the want for an NA setup and I wouldn't want to try to turn you away from it as it would be a very different and enjoyable build, but from the money standpoint a simple bolt on turbo option will be the best per-cost ratio. Adam from Z1auto did a build back when I had my 350Z where he did an NA non stroker setup, but that car screamed with Tomei 268 cams and 11.3 compression (where I believe most of the power bump came from) and full bolt ons. That being said the DE motor was never as potent as our current motor nor did it have the thickness of powerband. After his build his power was comparable to our cars bolt ons, pushing 303whp. I dyno'd my stock 350Z at 228whp, so being an *** and assuming that the VQ37 is as advanced over the 350 as it is, I wouldn't be surprised to see 400 or just under 400 to the wheels. Factoring all the parts in, going as budget as you can on it, you would probably be pretty close to 15g's into the motor build at that point...and as stated before a GTM TT will sit you at 430 to the wheels pretty easily and without breaking a sweat. I don't think it's wrong to go for numbers personally as you will be enjoying the car in whatever form you choose, it is your car and if you want 500hp you can enjoy that just knowing it is lurking underneath your foot.

09-09-2012, 05:34 PM	#26 (permalink)
zguynate A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Strangeland Posts: 1,054 Drives: 09 370z Rep Power: 73	Personally I would go with the BP turbo kit when Sasha releases it. They have proven themselves on the 350z's. The NA route is going to be really expensive with minor gains. Cost to performance, FI is going to be the better bet. The boosted performance kit is a single twin scroll turbo kit that is very DIY friendly. Maintenance would be very easy if something should break. Not to mention Sasha is on top of his customer service game. __________________ 2009 370z touring w/sports package

09-09-2012, 06:03 PM	#27 (permalink)
Cmike2780 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 5,059 Drives: slowwww Rep Power: 29	It really depends on what you want this car to be OP. Your most demanding setting is being able to get this on the track without problems. If that's the case, keep it NA and focus on making it reliable and adjustable all around. Wheels, tires, suspension, fuel system, weight reduction, brakes etc etc. Massive power is a lot of fun, but its kind of limited to where you can use it. Pushing the stock engine internals on a track with any type of forced induction is a bit risky, so you should pretty much account for double your budget should the unforeseen happen. You hear a lot about cars on the forum going twin turbo's, but rarely hear about those that trashed thier engines... which have been known to happen. I know it's tempting to want to be the guy with the most HP, but there's always going to be another guy with more. You just really need enough for what you use the car for. __________________ [09][MB][6-Spd MT][Touring][Stillen Gen III][K&N][Borla CBE][Evo-R] [ArchitTEK Photography]

09-10-2012, 06:32 PM	#28 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	Thanks for the replies. As for taking this car to the track, I'm definitely concerned over reliability and temps. I feel I can work around the temp issues. The oil cooler I have has way more than enough to cool oil on a boosted motor. I think an upgraded radiator and fan unit will handle the fluid temps fairly well. Now I feel that different types of boosted applications are going to affect some component of the vehicle more than the other. Turbo's will definitely put a lot more stress on the driveline. The amount of torque they create and how it builds it's power is not linear like an NA Z powerband. There is a torque surge and hp starts shooting for the moon. Does anyone know how 5th and 6th gears handle this power on a MT tranny? Now with the supercharger, it puts more stress on the motor as it's belt driven and requires it to spin faster to reach similar power levels as a turbo. Centrifugal superchargers build power very smoothly, but it's not an off the line rocket like a roots type or a fast spooling turbo/s. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

09-10-2012, 07:06 PM	#29 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	Speaking of NA, I saw that GTM sells a 500bhp NA VHR motor, ticket price of that sexy beast is 20k+. It's a competition engine and cost competition money, but I still eye raped it for about 45 minutes. Edit: Via email, Mike @ GTM is recommending the twin charger setup based on my budget, mods and goals. It makes sense, and it was a setup I showed interest in. We shall see. On the polls, forum members have TT as 1st, JUN cams and NA 2nd, and then the twin charger 3rd. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction Last edited by SS_Firehawk; 09-10-2012 at 08:35 PM.

09-11-2012, 09:39 AM	#30 (permalink)
edub370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: KCMO Posts: 3,458 Drives: 09 370z S/T 6MT Rep Power: 20	has anyone (individual or company) done an NA 370 build... __________________ 09 370Z ST 6MT//Injen CAI//Greddy CBE//TP//TSW's//Swifts//Stillen lip//Whiteline sways 326whp/268tq

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