Stay NA or go to the Dark Side?

theDreamer

Nothing major because no one (individual) wants to up front the R&D money to do some new parts for the car and hope they show gains for a NA v6. For a company/team they are limited in racing leagues on mods many times so they focus on other upgrades they can do (suspension/aero/cooling/etc).

__________________
theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN
theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY
Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

edub370

Well that sucks. we may be sitting on an NA gold mine and never kno it...

__________________

SS_Firehawk

It's going to cost a Gold mine to do it as well, and therein lies the problem. To push 400whp, your going to spend twice as much than running a supercharger, to push 500whp, closer to 2.5x the cost of a TT. The only people who will be paying for that are teams that have rules to play by. Starting price for a wetsump 500hp motor was almost 25k... not including install. A dry sump 400hp na motor was 35k. That sir is the price of a used 370 and a new 370 respectively. t makes no sense to do unless costs are no concern and that person most likely makes enough money to buy something better than a 370Z.

__________________

SS_Firehawk

So I got my quote back from Mike@GTM and they will be running a promotion on the new twincharger system. There were a few recommendations that he added to the quote which I had an eye on already. All of which were massive cooling upgrades to keep the Z running cool during hot laps in this SW heat. He also stated that this will work with my existing oil cooler which is reassuring as I paid a small fortune for it.

I'll let GTM make their pricing announcements,but he recommended, radiator, shroud, and SPAL fans. He also recommended running their external water/oil cooler in series with my oil cooler. This is primarily due to the extreme climate here, so I don't see everyone needing such heavy duty cooling with their vehicles unless they are running them hard for an extended period of time. The only thing not included on the quote that I think I'll be picking up is their traction control system. It's a good safety feature as opposed to either the crappy OEM TCS or off and having that much power. Total price I'm looking at so far is just over $11k for the parts alone. Add another $1200 for the traction control module and $1500 for install and any additional tuning, I think $15k is a good estimate. I would anticipate a turbo setup to cost more with the same cooling options.

__________________

Kingbaby

I personally say save that 15k even though you got it like that! Congrats on the contracting job and stay safe man!

Stay NA...

I would look into other supporting mods! Gears/clutch/flywheel/tires/aero...then driver mod! If you need to line up on the street...NOS...folks over look it but it comes on faster and is a huge jump in power without the heat factor of other FI systems. Plus you won't have I baby the car around all he time like a regular FI car!

I plan to stay NA yet want the same things you looking for. Especially with UpRev I can have my maps for ever occasion...

/bench modding

__________________
07 Silver Alloy Nissan 350Z Nismo #0191 "Lin'da"
2amR--------------------> VQ I.N.C. - Like us!

SS_Firehawk

Thanks for the input. I'm surprised by the number of people hat chimed in to push the NA route. The polls have NA just behind the GTM TT. It would definitely be easier for me to pick up the other mods I was looking into if I didn't go FI. I can get a new clutch, flywheel, rear diff, the cams, buy back the motordyne manifold, new spark plugs, injectors, fuel pump (e85),new seats, harness, 2nd set of rims/tires, and necessary brake upgrades. I would still be way under in terms of price.

__________________

theDreamer

With NA, you can still purchase a lot of items which will improve your car a lot, clutch/flywheel, brakes, cams, intake, etc. You will hit a point where you need to pick a direction and just go down the rabbits hole and do not turn back. Both routes will be expensive.

I would vote for NA also, even though I have SC, because I really want to see a great NA build for the 370z. You look like you have the time, patience AND money to do it properly and enjoy the results.

__________________
theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN
theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY
Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

SS_Firehawk

I wish VVEL was something we could tune already. I really think it has great potential to change the game on every front. FI really needs it to tune overlap at higher boost pressures. NA can really use it to open a new can of worms. I think it has the possibilities of allowing some crazy exhaust cam profiles to run with it. I think the combination of VVEL tuning and a custom ground set of some aggressive exhaust cams can push this engine to the next level. If I knew when that day would come, I would be on that faster than Sir Mix A Lot on Nikki Minaj. I do have a year of waiting regardless of how bad I want to do anything.

Before I do anything to it to it, I will be replacing the spark plugs as I think they have been affected by a few thousand miles of being untuned and running pig rich. I think While I'm home on vacation, I'll get them replaced, the Motordyne manifold thrown back on, and retuned with temps that aren't in the 100's to see where I stand. I'm planning on a small trip to Cali as well while I'm home, I'll run on a dynojet while I'm there as well so I an see the elevation difference and if my shop back home has a stingy dyno.

I put down 270whp DIN bone stock on that dyno (avg was 266whp), and at it's highest 316whp DIN. He give me everything in DIN because it reads higher and I convert it. My friends bone stock 2012 M3 put down 332whp DIN on that dyno and that's rated at 414hp. Doing the math tells me that drivetrain loss is at about 20% when measured on this dyno.

Reversing the formula put my car at around 395 hp at the crank when I made the most hp. With it sitting at a tuned 306whp DIN right now, it's right around 381hp. If I can find that lost hp, I won't be as frustrated as I am now. Adding exhaust cams may just be all I need at that point. I'll be running M3 levels of engine performance in a car that weighs 400lbs less. I won't be chasing LS3 C6 vettes any time soon, but I'm also not 50+ or b!tching about my sh!tty seats and as$tastic interior either.

Am I making sense here? I want to be sure I'm not extrapolating out of the realm of what's considered common or realistic with the 370Z. I want to be realistic. If I can put down over 330whp on that same exact with those cams, I'll be happy with it's NA performance. 25whp from where I sit now is in my opinion, absolutely achievable with those cams.

EDIT: For clarification, I started my calculations with known hp at the crank. Example 1: 332 x .20= 66.4 (265.6whp) Example 2: 414 x .20= 82.8 (331.2whp)
I took factory crank hp and determined the difference between it and the dyno results to be 20% which is shown above. I then extrapolated the known crank hp and compared it to my dyno results at 316 and 306 respectively using 20% as my drivetrain loss to determine the new crank hp results. (I'm no mathematician, but this is the best way I could explain)

__________________

edub370

na can be badass on these vq's. idk if anyone caught this months modified (or superstreet. cant remember) but it had an article on an 04ish 350z that was a built NA car and it was making 377whp. thats with the old single mani configuration too. 400whp na is not unattainable for our cars

__________________

Megan370z

you will not see anyone getting 400whp N/A with the VVEL !!
hell even with those custom parts that I made which I spend hours for the research on how and what to do, Im still quite far from the 400 mark !!
but lastly on that dyno I had a good 15whp edge over other peoples who where also fully bolt-on.

that vq35 which did 377whp was probably a quite expensive NA built with some big cams and lighter rotary parts (fywheel/clucth/pulley) and other parts.

just an exemple from a guy I know

__________________
Megan Journal *Click Me* ....................One Man Team Motorsport *Click Me*

ZKraken22

This is gonna be long!

SS firehawk we WERE in the same position only difference is you have the money lol I love the 370z! why else would you get this car if you didn't? it's less practical, more expensive then the competition especially when you have cars like the 5.0,SS, EVO, STI around. I say Put the JUN cams in and with all your mods you will have a respectable car. This is a NA car stay NA. It's the least expensive project you listed in the polls. Even with stage 1 SC kit Cars like C63, M3, full bolt on 5.0 that can reach 450 NA will still kick you in the teeth and if your not out running around racing then whats the point in going FI? Just to say you have X amount of power? I dont want you to be one of those guys that does a project like this and then a year later sales the car! not worth it. Plus if you go with the JUN cams you will be unique and can always add other things down the road like if they do crack VVEL! You seem like you love the Z as i do too. I had a 350z and now a 370z. I want my Z to also keep up with the new and up coming cars on the road And i wanna see if the Cams can add a good 20 RWHP. If you go FI get a Twin turbo kit. I like SC kit's because you can run LTH but turbo kits are the better technology. Go hard or go home! for me its not worth spending big money on the 370z because im getting a used GTR thats the kinda car you wanna put all your money into because you actually see results. With a 370z I have to spend 30K just to beat a C6 ZO6 Ha no thank you. Spend 18K on a swizter p800 and blow 90% of cars off the road. Granted the GTR cost more.

Like i said I would get a greddy twin turbo kit

- The Greddy Twin Turbo tuner kit
- 6 new upgraded Denso injectors
- Walbro 255 LPH fuel pump
- osiris ROM editor license
- professional installation
- professional dyno tuning would cost you 12,775.00 (Zfever price)


But if i were you and you had 20k to spend i'd go NA all the way! you have the supporting mods just get the Jun cams ($675) with a Brian crower stroker kit ($5,184) maybe ACL rod and main bearings (dont touch the heads)
and little other things. Lets just say 8K in parts. Brian crower stroker kit comes as a fully balanced system and ready to install all orders are Special Orders you can get any bore size, any compression ratio and while your over there working they could be ready to go for you when you get home . My next point is people say the cost to do a NA build is to much!?! but yet i see Z's and G's with a stroker kit plus FI kits! and supporting mods! Volk rims, Body kits is that not expensive?
Member Coxjchollywoo said he has seen a NA G37 make 400 with a Stroker kit. It can be done. Member GAbe3d has a all motor g35 with 350 HP and 320 TQ. id much rather have a NA beast with a crazy powerband and a bad @$$ sound. Mind you a NA car is lighter the a FI car no? Member Rednezz on the my350z has Tomei 272 cams, Cosworth heads, pistons, rods stock crankshaft mad 320 RWHP on a VQ35DE motor! So 400 to the wheels on this motor can be done. yes you need money but gosh how much would labor be on a stroker kit?! Stroker Kit + labor how much could that really be?

NA delivers strength and reliability to your Z but a TT Z is a time bomb. Going FI and if your car is your DD you will have headaches and issues and your car will be down one time or another no matter if it is a small issue or big issue.
FI is the best way to get power we all know that but it's to risky to me because if my motor goes bomb im screwed. But that's me, that's my opinion!

__________________
Litespeed Racing Titanium Cold Air intake// GT Haus Axle// GarageLine combo// Nismo sway bars// Nismo Spoiler // Berk TP's

SS_Firehawk

So I spent the better part of 18 hours putting a list together of things I wanted or could get with a NA build. I tried to do as much research as possible with everything I picked, some stuff I'm still very ignorant of, or may be a better choice and I don't know. Here's the list

Tanabe Sustec Z40 Coilovers $1686 (captwholesale.com) 44.63 shipping
Tanabe Sway bars F+R $352 (captwholesale.com) 40.00 Shipping
Cusco Differential $1299 (captwholesale.com) 23.26 Shipping
Eibach Front Camber Arms $377.58 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping
SPL Rear Traction Links $280 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping
SPL Rear Toe Links $259 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping
SPL Rear Camber Links $245 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping
SPL Lockout Kit $59 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping
SPL Wrench $39 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping
Nismo Diff Cover $119.95 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping
Motul RBF 600 Brake Fluidx2 $31.50 (importpartspro.com) Free Shipping
Teflon Coated Brake lines $109 (conceptzpercormance.com) 15.80 Shipping
Hawk HP+ Front pads $180 (conceptzperformance.com) Combined w/ above
Hawk HP+ Rear pads $120 (conceptzperformance.com) Combined w/ above
JWT Clutch / Flywheel $760 (conceptzperformance.com) Free Shipping
DBA 5000 front rotors $524 (captwholesale.com) 24.10 Shipping
DBA 4000 rear rotors $255.55 (captwholesale.com) 17.20 Shipping
Hood struts $80 (conceptzperformance.com)
Stillen Brake Cooling Kit $299 (Z1performance.com) 39.99 Shipping
OEM Spark Plugs $95 (Z1performance.com) Combined w/ above
Redline Oil Change kit $63.50 (Z1performance.com) Combined w/ above
M370 intake manifold $400-585 (Unknown) 10.00 Shipping
Y pipe resonator $154 (motordyne) 9.71 Shipping
JUN CAMS $640 (JUN)
GTM Upgraded Fuel System $1699 (gtmotorsports.com)
GTM Traction Control System $1299 (gtmotorsports.com)

Any suggestions would help. BTW, this entire list was about as much as the twin charger and cooling mods needed. And I have no idea how much getting all this installed would run me. Granted I can do some of it on my own. The Resonator is just incase I want to run that instead of my Cat, and my dumb *** sold my M370 manifold, shoulda kept that thing.

__________________

oro

Last time I checked Gtms racelogic tcl is around $2300, kinda pushes the numbers a bit more

SS_Firehawk

It may have been, I was too lazy to find it with my super slow internet here Everything is an exercise of patience

__________________

Red__Zed

you won't even come close to 400whp with anything streetable.


surely you are joking.


I am continually stunned every time I look at this thread, and people are pushing the "NA=reliable" claim. In reality, at power level that are even REMOTELY comparable, you are going to see better reliability with boost every time.


You can get to 400ish whp no problem with mild boost and a conservative tune, and probably run the car for 100k+. Trying to get to even 360whp NA is going to mean cracking the engine open, and running a significantly more aggressive tune...not to mention probably cutting down on the air intake filtration. Look at the 350 Megan370z posted... it is running ITBs, and a hella aggressive tune, not to mention all the other crap. Trying to wrench power out of an NA build means a whole lot more risk to the engine, all with a much lower reward.

If SS wants to do it because he can afford it, I'll be one of the first people to subscribe to the build thread, but if he does it, it should be with eyes wide open to the risks.