Raising The Redline On The Z

JARblue · 03-29-2019, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zer099

I'm not looking for trade secrets but generalized information without ambiguity or apparent speculation is more helpful to the community I would imagine. Helping a common guy plan a build is often vastly different then a race team trying to get their car ready for a season. The whole point of this forum, I thought, was for the common enthusiasts to share information and grow.

So the biggest problem you're encountering is the guys that are doing this kind of crazy work to the Z are still very few and very far between out of a very small total number of Z owners to begin with. Plus not all of them are even on this forum. Some of them were active at one time or another but they weren't posting extreme details on their build mainly because they were busy af and also they understand that there are very few people interested in the extreme cost of these builds.

A lot of the available information that has been presented comes directly from race teams, not common enthusiasts. Gotta have results to avoid speculation, and there just aren't that many out there. So you have to take a few people at their word based on their experience

Elmo370z · 03-29-2019, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zer099

You're presuming no search was done. Search "broken crankshaft" and you get six returns, none about breaking a crank. One from 2016 where a guy directly asks about the limits of breaking the crankshaft and the one reply he gets is more focused on HP and a slight guess at RPMs. Try "broken crank" and you get about two pages, but only one useful thread (in regards to the question), sans this thread that now shows up in that inquiry. And that one thread doesn't actually state why, how, conditions, or anything of the like; just that a when they retired an engine it typically had a broken crank, and their rev limit was 8750. Same goes for "valve float". I spent the better part of my time searching these boars and the internet before commenting in this thread. The original question in this thread was about 8000. The necro-revival of this thread was about similar, and in either cases I found it doubtful it was about season tracking the car and living its life in the 8000+ range. To enter the conversation and tell people they need to worry about there crank can seem absurd. We have no evidence you need to worry about your crank in the low 8000s with the type of use the engine is most likely going to see. Valve float, maybe. Rod bolts? According to a reputable shop it is an issue. Oil pump, for sure, we all should know that (though dry sump is not the only answer or the correct one depending on the engine's use).

The data is not always out there sometimes. Sometimes you have to wear on people's nerves to get information that they themselves might think is out there.

Food for thought. Fund the frontier my friend. Sign up for tracks day beat the crap out of it for a season if it last, tear down the motor inspect every part, document it. Rebuild it and see what part fails again. Like others have stated mostly race teams have gone this route. Most people don’t want to fund the R&D. If you watch grid life static 370z has a 8k redline, at the end of the season ask him how his motor held up, curious if he will tear down the motor to inspect any failures starting to arise or will he just run it until it blows up or when it blows up will he take the time to inspect everything and share his experience or like most will he just junk the motor.

cv129 · 03-29-2019, 12:31 PM

If in doubt, simply ask the other person for further evidence.

Do not assume “no known failure” to equal “no failure” or “won’t fail”.

Spooler · 03-29-2019, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zer099

You're presuming no search was done. Search "broken crankshaft" and you get six returns, none about breaking a crank. One from 2016 where a guy directly asks about the limits of breaking the crankshaft and the one reply he gets is more focused on HP and a slight guess at RPMs. Try "broken crank" and you get about two pages, but only one useful thread (in regards to the question), sans this thread that now shows up in that inquiry. And that one thread doesn't actually state why, how, conditions, or anything of the like; just that a when they retired an engine it typically had a broken crank, and their rev limit was 8750. Same goes for "valve float". I spent the better part of my time searching these boars and the internet before commenting in this thread. The original question in this thread was about 8000. The necro-revival of this thread was about similar, and in either cases I found it doubtful it was about season tracking the car and living its life in the 8000+ range. To enter the conversation and tell people they need to worry about there crank can seem absurd. We have no evidence you need to worry about your crank in the low 8000s with the type of use the engine is most likely going to see. Valve float, maybe. Rod bolts? According to a reputable shop it is an issue. Oil pump, for sure, we all should know that (though dry sump is not the only answer or the correct one depending on the engine's use).

The data is not always out there sometimes. Sometimes you have to wear on people's nerves to get information that they themselves might think is out there.

It is really simple. Lay your money on the table and take your chances. Then you can see what breaks. If you want the experience and proof you have to PAY for it. Either by someone else's knowledge or your own actual experience. I don't think we have that to worry about though, you aren't going to do anything.

Rusty · 03-29-2019, 01:19 PM

What it comes down to is this with stock crank and 8K redline with a N/A motor.

DD, canyon play toy. Where you might see 8K maybe once a week. It will live.

Doing track days a couple times a year. It will live. But the number of track days you do increases. The life shortens.

Track toy. You are on borrowed time.

FI is a different story.

Elmo370z · 03-29-2019, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

What it comes down to is this with stock crank and 8K redline with a N/A motor.

DD, canyon play toy. Where you might see 8K maybe once a week. It will live.

Doing track days a couple times a year. It will live. But the number of track days you do increases. The life shortens.

Track toy. You are on borrowed time.

FI is a different story.

So true.

Elmo370z · 03-29-2019, 02:17 PM

Kels used a stock 370z crank and revved to 9k. It took the abuse, but he also reported having micro cracks from constant revving past 8k

ChopsZ · 04-06-2019, 03:08 AM

So simple (a.k.a. - expensive) answer is a built bottom end with billet crank, built non-VVEL heads, BE billet oil pump and ring that sucker out to 9k! The heck with the junior 8k rpm.

TMRN370z · 04-10-2019, 11:49 AM

Contact SuckerPunch directly.

husam2012 · 06-14-2021, 06:09 PM

It's so funny how people answer questions so aggressively when they don't have any actual experience with it.

I'm proud to say that I've finally done a ton of testing with street driven Z's and raised redlines. 7800-7900 on a completely stock motor that's beat on everyday and it hasn't had a single failure.

I also worked on 1slowZ's car and we revved that thing to 8700 every single day and for 60+ dyno runs (the rev limiter wasn't working as intended as I had it set to 8300 but it was revving higher. That car has JUN cams, stock VVEL and again, no valve float, no cracked crank, and no issues at all.

Cars with upgraded oil pump gears will do 8200 all day just fine, but keep in mind this is strictly for daily driven Zs and not a track car that sees all of it's mileage at WOT and redline.

SteveVQ · 06-15-2021, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by husam2012

It's so funny how people answer questions so aggressively when they don't have any actual experience with it.

I'm proud to say that I've finally done a ton of testing with street driven Z's and raised redlines. 7800-7900 on a completely stock motor that's beat on everyday and it hasn't had a single failure.

I also worked on 1slowZ's car and we revved that thing to 8700 every single day and for 60+ dyno runs (the rev limiter wasn't working as intended as I had it set to 8300 but it was revving higher. That car has JUN cams, stock VVEL and again, no valve float, no cracked crank, and no issues at all.

Cars with upgraded oil pump gears will do 8200 all day just fine, but keep in mind this is strictly for daily driven Zs and not a track car that sees all of it's mileage at WOT and redline.

Didn't 1slowZs motor throw a rod a few months back and now he has a new Z? The one that popped was boosted but stock motor, right? I don't stay up to date with youtubers that much. But I remember a video about that happening.

Spooler · 06-15-2021, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by husam2012

It's so funny how people answer questions so aggressively when they don't have any actual experience with it.

I'm proud to say that I've finally done a ton of testing with street driven Z's and raised redlines. 7800-7900 on a completely stock motor that's beat on everyday and it hasn't had a single failure.

I also worked on 1slowZ's car and we revved that thing to 8700 every single day and for 60+ dyno runs (the rev limiter wasn't working as intended as I had it set to 8300 but it was revving higher. That car has JUN cams, stock VVEL and again, no valve float, no cracked crank, and no issues at all.

Cars with upgraded oil pump gears will do 8200 all day just fine, but keep in mind this is strictly for daily driven Zs and not a track car that sees all of it's mileage at WOT and redline.

You left off the most important part, he had a dry sump system. Stock oil pump had been long gone.

Hotrodz · 06-15-2021, 06:50 PM

This is bigger deal when boosted because of torque numbers and things start to get out of balance quickly with boost. That said with the right parts and a good rune 8k is doable.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

1slow370 · 06-17-2021, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVQ

Didn't 1slowZs motor throw a rod a few months back and now he has a new Z? The one that popped was boosted but stock motor, right? I don't stay up to date with youtubers that much. But I remember a video about that happening.

Motor never blew, it's just going to a new home as the car has been converted to awd so it needs turbos now lol

It does have a dry sump and an ati damper which do go a long way to keeping the crank alive.

THE BULL · 06-17-2021, 02:37 PM

It's a hit or miss and this is a topic you don't want any misses.
Raising a the redline and tuning for it will move your power band and leave your low/mid range a bit bland.

Then ask yourself where in that rev-range will you see yourself and you can come up with a better answer. Tons of things at play here.

A balanced crank/rods with an ATI and great oil pump clearances should last quite a bit but it's all determined on driver/abuse/tune.

Whoever plans on this should have coolers, damper, tune and should open their filters.

Rev should be determined on Rod/stroke ratio + mods + tune. Even then it's not a guarantee.

It appears the VHR has a 1.72 ratio (if math is right)
For better comparision:
Honda K24s have a 1.54 ratio and with a type S pump they are usually revved to 8k
While it's younger brother the K20 has a 1.62 ratio and these are take to 9k every day.
The odd child would be the F20c with a ratio of 1.81 and these are production engines with a standard 9k rev limit.

I understand that how some may feel about Hondas however these high revvers can provide great info at that ratio as long as everything else holds 8k should be feasible.

03-29-2019, 12:31 PM	#48 (permalink)
cv129 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,223 Drives: 09 Nismo, 16 Nismo Rep Power: 163995	If in doubt, simply ask the other person for further evidence. Do not assume “no known failure” to equal “no failure” or “won’t fail”. __________________ Setrab \| RE-71 \| SPL \| JRZ \| Nismo \| ARK \| Whiteline \| RacingBrake \| CJM Oil Pan \| Ti shield Last edited by cv129; 03-29-2019 at 12:34 PM.

03-29-2019, 01:19 PM	#50 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 68 Posts: 35,190 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684437	What it comes down to is this with stock crank and 8K redline with a N/A motor. DD, canyon play toy. Where you might see 8K maybe once a week. It will live. Doing track days a couple times a year. It will live. But the number of track days you do increases. The life shortens. Track toy. You are on borrowed time. FI is a different story. JARblue, Elmo370z and zer099 like this. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html Last edited by Rusty; 03-29-2019 at 01:22 PM.

04-06-2019, 03:08 AM	#53 (permalink)
ChopsZ Track Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Central Florida Age: 49 Posts: 965 Drives: 2016 370Z GM 6MT Rep Power: 2301	So simple (a.k.a. - expensive) answer is a built bottom end with billet crank, built non-VVEL heads, BE billet oil pump and ring that sucker out to 9k! The heck with the junior 8k rpm. Rusty likes this. __________________ She's For Sale! PERFORMANCE: Aero Workz \| Akebono \| BC Racing \| EcuTek \| HKS \| MaxBore \| Motordyne \| Nismo \| RJM \| SPL \| StopTech \| Z1 AUDIO: Arc Audio \| Bazooka \| Helix \| Pioneer \| Stereo Integrity

04-10-2019, 11:49 AM	#54 (permalink)
TMRN370z Base Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 38 Drives: 2011 370z Black 7AT Rep Power: 12	Contact SuckerPunch directly. __________________ Z1 34 row oil cooler \| ATI Damper \| Stillen Gen 3 \| Art Pipes \| Resonated XYZ \| Tomei \| BC Racing ZR coilovers \| Z1 Adjustable Suspension Package \| Z1 SS brake lines \| Carbotech XP 12/10 \| Stillen brake cooling kit \| Setrab 25 row AT cooler \| Z1 power steering cooler

06-14-2021, 06:09 PM	#55 (permalink)
husam2012 Track Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Michigan Posts: 549 Drives: 370Z Nismo Rep Power: 9469	It's so funny how people answer questions so aggressively when they don't have any actual experience with it. I'm proud to say that I've finally done a ton of testing with street driven Z's and raised redlines. 7800-7900 on a completely stock motor that's beat on everyday and it hasn't had a single failure. I also worked on 1slowZ's car and we revved that thing to 8700 every single day and for 60+ dyno runs (the rev limiter wasn't working as intended as I had it set to 8300 but it was revving higher. That car has JUN cams, stock VVEL and again, no valve float, no cracked crank, and no issues at all. Cars with upgraded oil pump gears will do 8200 all day just fine, but keep in mind this is strictly for daily driven Zs and not a track car that sees all of it's mileage at WOT and redline. Optimiser and redondoaveb like this. __________________ Creator of the GTR TT Conversion Kit, NA Record Holder (401WHP) Ecutek Master Tuner (VQ37, VR30, VR38, B58, S55, S58) BTWTuning

03-29-2019, 02:17 PM	#52 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,709 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295378	Kels used a stock 370z crank and revved to 9k. It took the abuse, but he also reported having micro cracks from constant revving past 8k

06-15-2021, 06:50 PM	#58 (permalink)
Hotrodz A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: NW, AZ Posts: 9,330 Drives: 10 Nissan 370z Nismo Rep Power: 2684385	This is bigger deal when boosted because of torque numbers and things start to get out of balance quickly with boost. That said with the right parts and a good rune 8k is doable. Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk Rusty and Spooler like this. __________________ *Fast Intentions TT Installed and Tuned by Seb at SpecialtyZ 610whp 560tq:\|Fast Intentions 3" TT-TDX*\|SpecialtyZ/Fast Intentions 72 Row Oil Cooler\|SZ 6 Puck Clutch & Flywheel\|3GsCustoms\|Z1\|Wavetrac\|Hotchkis\|Whiteline \|Blitz\|Fortune Auto 500\|Fujimura\|SPL\|H&R\|TK\|TWM\|RPM Rollbar\|Sparco\|Next Level Performance\|TrackSpec\|AeroFlow Dynamics\|Pioneer\|

06-17-2021, 02:37 PM	#60 (permalink)
THE BULL Base Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Florida Posts: 217 Drives: G37S Rep Power: 26848	It's a hit or miss and this is a topic you don't want any misses. Raising a the redline and tuning for it will move your power band and leave your low/mid range a bit bland. Then ask yourself where in that rev-range will you see yourself and you can come up with a better answer. Tons of things at play here. A balanced crank/rods with an ATI and great oil pump clearances should last quite a bit but it's all determined on driver/abuse/tune. Whoever plans on this should have coolers, damper, tune and should open their filters. Rev should be determined on Rod/stroke ratio + mods + tune. Even then it's not a guarantee. It appears the VHR has a 1.72 ratio (if math is right) For better comparision: Honda K24s have a 1.54 ratio and with a type S pump they are usually revved to 8k While it's younger brother the K20 has a 1.62 ratio and these are take to 9k every day. The odd child would be the F20c with a ratio of 1.81 and these are production engines with a standard 9k rev limit. I understand that how some may feel about Hondas however these high revvers can provide great info at that ratio as long as everything else holds 8k should be feasible.

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