Blown VVEL !!!

Megan370z

at this point I do not exactly know why.

All I know is the oil pressure light came up while I was on the track then I went back in the pit. I do not have a definative answer why the light came up.
With the datalog from my AIM logger the oil pressure didnt show much of any low pressure problem.
the oem oil pressure sensor seem like to be an on/off type of sensor and I do not know much more about this.

What I can be sure is with the setup I have and pulling 1.3g/1.4g without any oil baffle, remember I also got a tank slapper on the track pavement. Oil starvation is probably the main cause.
The session after didnt last long that I had to get back in the pit.

but to answer what got broken first ?
I havent finished inspecting the engine ...

but we have these right now

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BGTV8

Oil pump gears in the OEM VQ37 engine are not very robust. Any of the race teams running the VQ engines will replace the oil pump gears (NISMO Japan offer replacement gears). For me, "if" I was pushing hard, I would go dry sump right off the bat ... cheaper than an engine re-build.

IMHO, if a car is being pushed "hard", then making sure the oiling is solid is the first place to start - at the very least, consider an accumulator.

Over the years (the last 40-odd), I have lost maybe 4 engines to oiling problems, and these are full-race engines. It really, really ruins your weekend and the following 6 months - no seat time and mega-expense (usually unscheduled) which causes the "trouble-and-strife" (wife) to go ballistic.

The other thing to do is data log oil pressure and make real sure that you have a 40psi external pressure switch plumbed into the high pressure circuit which is hooked up to a big red light in the dash somewhere - if that puppy comes on, shut the engine down ... driving back the the pits slowly risks catastrophic component failure. Check the data logging after each run looking for oil pressure drops which indicate time to pull the engine and check bearings.

NISMO VQ engine parts on NISMO.JP site are here (is mainly VQ35 but still applicable).

NISMO | VQ35DE Engine Parts

BGTV8

NISMO.JP website talks about their uprated gears being safe to 8200rpm. This presupposes that the OEM gears will not tolerate this rev-limit. I can only suspect that 7500rpm limit from the factory has something to do with it.

RB

Megan370z

earlier today I went back to work on the engine.
I removed the blown VVEL head to see if by chance the valve didnt hit the piston .

everything looked good on the piston surface !
good I was happy with this.
then I started unassembling the lower part of the engine to look at those crank journal.

not a single sign of scrach/groove !! beside where the Oil pump use to be but with some polishing the imperfection should be gone if needs be.

I assume the crank should be good enough to keep and tweak it a little bit before I install it in my spare engine !

atleast I got some good news from that blown engine. !




yeah trust me, my next setup will have a few device to fight agaisnt oil starvation !!! Right now I will pass on the drysump because I cant afford it at all. but that would surely be a project for 2014.

as for that Nismo oil pump .
do you know for sure if those race team actualy use the same that they advertise on that website ? I would prefer to order it from the US/Canada but I might have to get it from the link you provided

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wstar

Is that VQ35 pump (from the Nismo link) directly applicable to our blocks? Sounds like $1,200 just translating japanese price.

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Megan370z

yeah I did a quick research and it came up 999$ to 13xx $ !!!!!!!! the OEM one is like 150$
heheh

yeah I asked the question because im sure I read somewhere the HR oil pump didnt fit the DE block ....
soo im wondering it was true or not

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Megan370z

Yesterday I forgot to mention about what I found in the broken Oil pump
its a small pin which I have no idea where it came from



next detail I found is that the bolt on the Camshaft sprocket bank 2 was a little bit loose
check this !!!
there is some side to side play on the pin


then you can see on both side in the groove that same pin where it hit the camshaft sprocket
Compare the good one on the left and damaged on the right

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BGTV8

Checking with NISMO engine builders in Japan. Will uodate when I get a reply

Shamu

Oil pump flaw is well known issue. Surprised you were running the car to 8000 rpm without a dry sump or upgraded pump? All early grand am motor failures were due to same issue. Classic failures from lack of oil. Grand am teams also measured drops in oil pressure around turns with stock pan. That's why they built deep pan with trap doors. But if I were to build an HR head motor I'd go for dry sump or not build higher reving motor. You really can't afford not to spend money on proper oiling if your building a track car motor.

It's why I'm went with forced induction until I can build motor with proper oiling system. What will you do on your rebuild to assure proper oiling?

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Megan370z

nothing is done yet but I have a few idea
one of them is to get an oil pan spacer then built my own baffle bolted to it .
then an accumulator will be installed .


[B[/B]

Ive seen quite a few people running 8000 and even a bit higher with the VQ that had the oem oil cooler without any much of any problem.
when someone blew their engine they arent going public most of the time and figure out with everybody what happpenned in the engine..
I had no idea with the Grand am car .. info isnt soo easy to get for that kind of stuff when you arent friend with that race team.

I try to get in contact with those people but I never really received any info or tips...
one of them is doran team.

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takjak2

So sorry to see an engine go like this.

That is a mighty expensive oil pump from Nismo. So BGTV8, does it fit?

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Shamu

It was posted a couple times here last year. The stock oil pump literally shatters from harmonics above 7500 RPM. The metal is of inferior quality and isnt designed to rev that high. So essentially you have a ticking timebomb if you defeat rev limiter. I wouldnt trust stock bottom end much beyond 7500 either.

Again this is why I went with lower rving forced induction. I also try to shift below 7500 RPM redline to save motor as well.

You have several things working against you with VQ37.

1. Poor stock oil pickup for track running - major oiling issues in high g turns
2. VQ37 heads with VVEL run very hot especially at higher RPMs. Hot heads not good. Especially when you run RPMs beyond design spec. Thats why all Grand Am teams went to HR heads.
3. Oil pumps arent made to handle high RPM's

I was at track testing sessions with high RPM VQ block and HR head race car. Even with best cooling systems they had issues keeping these motors cool with stock oiling system. You cant just turn up RPMs without way to keep the motor oiled at those RPMs.

The only real fix in my opinion if you intend to make a high reving track motor is to put a dry sump on it.

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takjak2

Did Megan have aftermarket pulleys? Last night I went through threads with other damaged VQs and found this to be a potentially contributing reoccurring common link.

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Megan370z

After I talked an extended period of time over the phone last night.
No, the pulley doesnt seem to be part of the problem since its not the oil pump that failed first.

the damage first happenned in the VVEL head .
I drove back home, which is normaly a 6 hours drive, with a quite noisy VVEL head but 200 kms later, it lost 90% of the power and barely made it to the next exit. once the engined died to 0 rpm , it never wanted to rotate (broken oil pump and VVEL head.)

that mysterious pin is probably what caused to fail the oil pump .. it was probably stuck somewhere that restricted the oil flow in the head

next,
my last finding that the camshaft sprocket was loose is surely one of the big problem.

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Megan370z

I talked with Nick at 5523 Motorsports and he explained me that NISMO does have an HR oil pump that isnt listed on their website but could take 16 months to actualy get it of be very luck to receive it within 6 months

He had a project with his chromoly oil pump gears but his contact seem to be disapeared or very hard to reach from what I understood
He had 10 of them made and lived up to 12 000 rpm which were also used in Grand Am cars and other race team.

I really hope he will be able to have a few more made , becase I cant see myself spending 9000$ for a drysump when that chromoly oil pump gears could cost in the 1000$ to have.
I do not do any Pro Race or evern have the budget for this but I do want something that will perform well . doing custom parts isnt soo much an issue.

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