NA 370z on e85

1slow370 · 09-23-2014, 07:39 PM

there is no e85 sensor on the 370z nor is there an ability to add one therefor mixing will make the car run lean or run with more detonation depending on which tune you have on and how off the percentage is.

RLami · 09-23-2014, 08:10 PM

What is an E85 sensor? I've never heard of such a thing. The O2 sensor will read a lean condition, but you just increase fueling. And with E85 you can run leaner, and still be relatively safe. When I tuned my MS3 for it's initial "E blend" of 25% E85/75% 91, I threw in the 25% and drove around normal for a couple days to get a baseline on the stock tune. Under WOT there was nothing implying any dangerous conditions. And this is on a boosted motor, mind you. And you would tune FOR the E85. not juust add it willy-nilly to any map.

1slow370 · 09-23-2014, 09:29 PM

Its a fuel alcohol sensor as an ms3 boy u should have just wired up a gm one, it measures the alchol content in the fuel and adjusts both the afr and timing based on that. Without one you are making a rough guess at the octane of the fuel in your tank, trying to ply catch up with the o2 sensors, and praying it doesnt knock. Then again u were only running 25% e85 and u were on an aftermarket ecu with much better closed loop adjustment and more accurate a/f sensors so nothing you learned on that platform is applicable to what the shitbox nissan stuck us with does when you vary the alcohol content in the tank.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

RLami · 09-23-2014, 09:47 PM

Boy? appreciate it. Just trying to get some constructive conversation going. There is going to be a fixed loss of AFR given a specific blend of Eth that you use. I've never heard of this sensor being used in any application that I've researched. I can see them using it in OE applications as they are going for reliability and the average joe not knowing their head from there foot.

You just account for that loss and adjust fueling from there. So with a little math and testing you can absolutely tune for it with no 'sensor'.

Plenty of people have tested E85 knock volatility up to 13/1 AFR on boosted applications with no knock or detonation that you speak of.

RLami · 09-23-2014, 10:01 PM

Plus this was done on an OE ECU using a flash just like any tune for the Z. Just modified fuel and timing tables plus some other in the weeds stuff. 02 sensors react at the same rate as they did before on 100% gasoline, you just tune in the 30% loss in flow due to the E85. It's the same as tuning for meth injection. You have a tune. you run meth. you find the baseline change, and tune for it.

As for praying about the octane content. as long as you fill up consistently with the same blend of E85, and your tune isn't trying to ride the bleeding edge of performance, it's less dangerous than tuning for 91/93, if you know what you are changing and why. You have the same chance of getting poor gasoline as poor E85.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...onal_gasoline/

This article is assuming 100% E85, thus all the references to changing fuel system components. I'm just using it for subjective purposes, being that I'm implying a blend of E85 and gasoline to make no changes to the fuel system.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just curious on the subject, and why this approach would or wouldn't work for our platform.

tvfreakazoid · 09-23-2014, 11:14 PM

It seems like it would be a pain in the *** in the long run doing this conversion on the z.
I may not go this route. Plus with loss of mpg and I don't think u would get much of a boost in HP.

synolimit · 09-24-2014, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLami

Why is mixing not an option? I've mixed in previous cars and had no issues.

You can mix but mix with the gas light on. Then pic the map for which has more of that fuel in the tank when you fill up.

synolimit · 09-24-2014, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

It seems like it would be a pain in the *** in the long run doing this conversion on the z.
I may not go this route. Plus with loss of mpg and I don't think u would get much of a boost in HP.

Not really. Run the tank till light comes on, go get gas, pic map for what ever fuel you end up getting. Pretty simple. I personally would run 93 till I need the power like at the track, drag, autoX. It may be ok but I still don't trust e85 and none e85 vehicles hoses and seals running 24/7.

E85 does cost more so for DD stick with 93. I still guess 10-15hp though.

tvfreakazoid · 09-24-2014, 05:41 AM

Here in Kali we only have 91 octane ( highest. Then 89 & 87).

How come u don't trust e85? That's why I assume u would get the proper hoses, fuel injected and what ever else u would need

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

Not really. Run the tank till light comes on, go get gas, pic map for what ever fuel you end up getting. Pretty simple. I personally would run 93 till I need the power like at the track, drag, autoX. It may be ok but I still don't trust e85 and none e85 vehicles hoses and seals running 24/7.

E85 does cost more so for DD stick with 93. I still guess 10-15hp though.

Jordo! · 09-24-2014, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

for na 370z e85 you won't need more than 600cc injectors and a 255, our fuel line material (nylon) is adequate for e85. the rubber hose of old is not. when installing the 255 make sure the hose used to run from the pump to the the filter is rated sae30r10 then you will need uprev setup with a gas tune and an e85 tune on a naturally aspirated car make sure the e85 percentage used while tuning is close to that used when filling IE before tuning run the car down to 1 or 2 lights on the gauge and fill with e85 do this same procedure every time you fill the car with e85. easy

You don't need special injectors or pump?

synolimit · 09-24-2014, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

Here in Kali we only have 91 octane ( highest. Then 89 & 87).

How come u don't trust e85? That's why I assume u would get the proper hoses, fuel injected and what ever else u would need

You cant replace the cars hoses and all seals. You could but itd be custom and probably have to do a fuel cell. I'm fine with it for short periods, just wouldn't run year round. I also have a trust issue with it because its very poorly regulated. It swings from E70 to E85. If you tune and get a good batch you're going to have issues when you get a bad one. This is why flex fuel cars run ethanol sensors. If it sees e70 it pulls timing and such. Without that sensor the car could be iffy.

theDreamer · 09-24-2014, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

Not really. Run the tank till light comes on, go get gas, pic map for what ever fuel you end up getting. Pretty simple. I personally would run 93 till I need the power like at the track, drag, autoX. It may be ok but I still don't trust e85 and none e85 vehicles hoses and seals running 24/7.

E85 does cost more so for DD stick with 93. I still guess 10-15hp though.

The "cost" factor is a tough one to say based on location.
It is all based on MPG loss and the cost difference between 91/93 & e85. If you have relatively cheap e85 and high cost for 93 then it could be cheaper & better performance to jump to e85 (especially with boost).

Also, you might want to talk to phunk about e85 & trust, running over 600whp with e85 for almost 50k (or more) miles with no issues.

Elmo370z · 09-24-2014, 11:16 AM

There are couple gas stations, depending on what part of Fl you live in. I know of a couple of the tampa area. 2.99 a gallon for e85.

RLami · 09-24-2014, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

You can mix but mix with the gas light on. Then pic the map for which has more of that fuel in the tank when you fill up.

This is what I did with my mixture. Always wait until 1/4 tank, fill up the same ratio of E85 all the time basically.

And as far as the corrosiveness issue, a lot of people talk about it, but I've never heard one story fuel system taking a s*** on them. That is not to say it isn't corrosive, but I'm not sure that it has been mainstream long enough to really know the long term effects on someones fuel system...

From Race on E85

"Q: Don’t I have to replace all the “rubber” in my fuel system so it want be eaten up by the alcohol in E85?

A: NO!!! We started out on this journey with a complete gasoline system. We upped the flow 30% to compensate for the lower heat energy output of ethanol and left everything else the same just to see the effects. We switched to E85 at the end of the 2006 racing season and to date we have found zero deterioration or corrosion anywhere in our fuel system. We leave it in the system all the time. We don’t drain anything between races or use any type of fuel lube."

1slow370 · 09-24-2014, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLami

Boy? appreciate it. Just trying to get some constructive conversation going. There is going to be a fixed loss of AFR given a specific blend of Eth that you use. I've never heard of this sensor being used in any application that I've researched. I can see them using it in OE applications as they are going for reliability and the average joe not knowing their head from there foot.

You just account for that loss and adjust fueling from there. So with a little math and testing you can absolutely tune for it with no 'sensor'.

Plenty of people have tested E85 knock volatility up to 13/1 AFR on boosted applications with no knock or detonation that you speak of.

OK ms3 girl? haltech, aem, ecutek(just not our platform) all allow for the addition of a fuel alcohol sensor, because if you tune on e85 for the most power it is all about advancing the timing as far as you can due to the increased octane of the fuel, so if you tuned the car at 70% alcohol content but then ran only 20% alcohol content you WOULD have serious problems.

Ok after reading another one of your posts we mean two different things by mixing, you mean running a different percentage than 100 and i mean that you can't roll up to the pump with 3/4 of a tank of regular and top it off with e85 (unless that is how you did it every time) the other main issue is that if you mix from a 1/4 tank of gas and then fill it with e85(64% alcohol), if you go back to the pump next time and fill up with e85 you will be running a higher percentage (80% alcohol)

09-23-2014, 07:39 PM	#46 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	there is no e85 sensor on the 370z nor is there an ability to add one therefor mixing will make the car run lean or run with more detonation depending on which tune you have on and how off the percentage is. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

09-23-2014, 08:10 PM	#47 (permalink)
RLami Base Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 48 Drives: 2015 Focus ST ST3 Rep Power: 11	What is an E85 sensor? I've never heard of such a thing. The O2 sensor will read a lean condition, but you just increase fueling. And with E85 you can run leaner, and still be relatively safe. When I tuned my MS3 for it's initial "E blend" of 25% E85/75% 91, I threw in the 25% and drove around normal for a couple days to get a baseline on the stock tune. Under WOT there was nothing implying any dangerous conditions. And this is on a boosted motor, mind you. And you would tune FOR the E85. not juust add it willy-nilly to any map. Last edited by RLami; 09-23-2014 at 08:14 PM.

09-23-2014, 09:29 PM	#48 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	Its a fuel alcohol sensor as an ms3 boy u should have just wired up a gm one, it measures the alchol content in the fuel and adjusts both the afr and timing based on that. Without one you are making a rough guess at the octane of the fuel in your tank, trying to ply catch up with the o2 sensors, and praying it doesnt knock. Then again u were only running 25% e85 and u were on an aftermarket ecu with much better closed loop adjustment and more accurate a/f sensors so nothing you learned on that platform is applicable to what the shitbox nissan stuck us with does when you vary the alcohol content in the tank. Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk Elmo370z likes this. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

09-23-2014, 09:47 PM	#49 (permalink)
RLami Base Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 48 Drives: 2015 Focus ST ST3 Rep Power: 11	Boy? appreciate it. Just trying to get some constructive conversation going. There is going to be a fixed loss of AFR given a specific blend of Eth that you use. I've never heard of this sensor being used in any application that I've researched. I can see them using it in OE applications as they are going for reliability and the average joe not knowing their head from there foot. You just account for that loss and adjust fueling from there. So with a little math and testing you can absolutely tune for it with no 'sensor'. Plenty of people have tested E85 knock volatility up to 13/1 AFR on boosted applications with no knock or detonation that you speak of. Last edited by RLami; 09-23-2014 at 10:07 PM.

09-23-2014, 10:01 PM	#50 (permalink)
RLami Base Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 48 Drives: 2015 Focus ST ST3 Rep Power: 11	Plus this was done on an OE ECU using a flash just like any tune for the Z. Just modified fuel and timing tables plus some other in the weeds stuff. 02 sensors react at the same rate as they did before on 100% gasoline, you just tune in the 30% loss in flow due to the E85. It's the same as tuning for meth injection. You have a tune. you run meth. you find the baseline change, and tune for it. As for praying about the octane content. as long as you fill up consistently with the same blend of E85, and your tune isn't trying to ride the bleeding edge of performance, it's less dangerous than tuning for 91/93, if you know what you are changing and why. You have the same chance of getting poor gasoline as poor E85. http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...onal_gasoline/ This article is assuming 100% E85, thus all the references to changing fuel system components. I'm just using it for subjective purposes, being that I'm implying a blend of E85 and gasoline to make no changes to the fuel system. I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just curious on the subject, and why this approach would or wouldn't work for our platform. Last edited by RLami; 09-23-2014 at 10:44 PM.

09-23-2014, 11:14 PM	#51 (permalink)
tvfreakazoid A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: kommie kali Posts: 1,238 Drives: 2015 Audi S5; 6spd. Rep Power: 10324	It seems like it would be a pain in the *** in the long run doing this conversion on the z. I may not go this route. Plus with loss of mpg and I don't think u would get much of a boost in HP. __________________ Mudders milk

09-24-2014, 11:16 AM	#58 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,709 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295378	There are couple gas stations, depending on what part of Fl you live in. I know of a couple of the tampa area. 2.99 a gallon for e85.