NA 370z on e85

RLami · 09-24-2014, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

OK ms3 girl? haltech, aem, ecutek(just not our platform) all allow for the addition of a fuel alcohol sensor, because if you tune on e85 for the most power it is all about advancing the timing as far as you can due to the increased octane of the fuel, so if you tuned the car at 70% alcohol content but then ran only 20% alcohol content you WOULD have serious problems.

Or just keep coming across as condescending. Whatever.

That's great that you can tune for specific amounts of Eth with a sensor, but we're talking fixed amounts here. E85 has a fixed (relative) content of alcohol. I wouldn't recommend running it in the winter, as the Alcohol content is reduced for cold start purposes. The key is that you do not *NEED* a sensor. I'm specifically discussing a *PARTIAL* tank of E85 at summer blend ratios of ~83%. The content of 25% E85/75% 91 could be anywhere from 1.75-2.2 gallons on a 10 gallon tank if we account for the Alcohol content falling to 70%. thats 17.5-22% Ethanol content, and while that may seem like a large fluctuation, in the grand scheme of things the lower volatility of E85 still makes it safer than tuning with an also inexact Octane of 91.

RLami · 09-24-2014, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

OK ms3 girl? haltech, aem, ecutek(just not our platform) all allow for the addition of a fuel alcohol sensor, because if you tune on e85 for the most power it is all about advancing the timing as far as you can due to the increased octane of the fuel, so if you tuned the car at 70% alcohol content but then ran only 20% alcohol content you WOULD have serious problems.

Ok after reading another one of your posts we mean two different things by mixing, you mean running a different percentage than 100 and i mean that you can't roll up to the pump with 3/4 of a tank of regular and top it off with e85 (unless that is how you did it every time) the other main issue is that if you mix from a 1/4 tank of gas and then fill it with e85(64% alcohol), if you go back to the pump next time and fill up with e85 you will be running a higher percentage (80% alcohol)

Yes, comm breakdown possibly.

You would never truely fill up in the traditional sense. You would always just put in x amount of E85 and Y amount of gasoline. So say you fill up at a 1/4 tank every time, and always put in 2.5 gallons of E85 and 7.5 Gallons of Gas. Always keeping your ratio 25%, but never running the pump until auto shutoff.

1slow370 · 09-24-2014, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLami

Or just keep coming across as condescending. Whatever.

That's great that you can tune for specific amounts of Eth with a sensor, but we're talking fixed amounts here. E85 has a fixed (relative) content of alcohol. I wouldn't recommend running it in the winter, as the Alcohol content is reduced for cold start purposes. The key is that you do not *NEED* a sensor. I'm specifically discussing a *PARTIAL* tank of E85 at summer blend ratios of ~83%. The content of 25% E85/75% 91 could be anywhere from 1.75-2.2 gallons on a 10 gallon tank if we account for the Alcohol content falling to 70%. thats 17.5-22% Ethanol content, and while that may seem like a large fluctuation, in the grand scheme of things the lower volatility of E85 still makes it safer than tuning with an also inexact Octane of 91.

Or make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see where you are going with it now and at that low of a percentage I really don't think you are getting the real benefits of going through all the trouble of running e85, at best you would be sitting around 93 octane ish plus or minus a couple points, when full e85 is slightly over 100octane. On a turbo platform i could see it working ok, but full e85 is still going to make more, on an na car you would really want to take advantage of running an oxyfuel as much as possible by running a higher percentage.

If we could run a standalone on this car the fuel alcohol sensor would really shine, you can set them up to increase boost, fueling, and timing as the alcohol percentage goes up and that gives you a lot of versatility, it also accounts for cheap or oxy gas because most fuels now have 10% ethanol in them anyway, it lets you extract every last horsepower in the system under all fuel conditions.

RLami · 09-24-2014, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

Or make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see where you are going with it now and at that low of a percentage I really don't think you are getting the real benefits of going through all the trouble of running e85, at best you would be sitting around 93 octane ish plus or minus a couple points, when full e85 is slightly over 100octane. On a turbo platform i could see it working ok, but full e85 is still going to make more, on an na car you would really want to take advantage of running an oxyfuel as much as possible by running a higher percentage.

If we could run a standalone on this car the fuel alcohol sensor would really shine, you can set them up to increase boost, fueling, and timing as the alcohol percentage goes up and that gives you a lot of versatility, it also accounts for cheap or oxy gas because most fuels now have 10% ethanol in them anyway, it lets you extract every last horsepower in the system under all fuel conditions.

I'm just pointing out the fact that you probably wouldn't roll up to someone you didn't know on the street or just met in general and call them "boy". Just didn't seem warranted. No worries though.

And, now that's getting to my question! I hate to ride the MS3, but through my experiences people on that platform really increase their timing. By as much as 5-6* advanced @ redline over similar 93 octane tunes. I know that with boost it's a different animal, and increasing timing along with boost is a 2 headed benefit.

At what point do we see diminishing returns on timing advance in regards to actual gains on this platform, and I'm curious to see how meth injection or E blends could help this.

Im interested in a blend, because ideally you wouldn't need to change much, if anything, in regards to fuel system.

synolimit · 09-24-2014, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer

The "cost" factor is a tough one to say based on location.
It is all based on MPG loss and the cost difference between 91/93 & e85. If you have relatively cheap e85 and high cost for 93 then it could be cheaper & better performance to jump to e85 (especially with boost).

Also, you might want to talk to phunk about e85 & trust, running over 600whp with e85 for almost 50k (or more) miles with no issues.

It's not tough though. Doesn't matter where you live, e85 is never enough of a gap to make up for its mpg loss cost wise. Power wise, sure spend the extra specially with boost.

Good for him on longevity. I'd love to see the inside of everything also how many times he had to adjust the tune like for winter when it jumps to e70.

synolimit · 09-24-2014, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLami

This is what I did with my mixture. Always wait until 1/4 tank, fill up the same ratio of E85 all the time basically.

And as far as the corrosiveness issue, a lot of people talk about it, but I've never heard one story fuel system taking a s*** on them. That is not to say it isn't corrosive, but I'm not sure that it has been mainstream long enough to really know the long term effects on someones fuel system...

From Race on E85

"Q: Don’t I have to replace all the “rubber” in my fuel system so it want be eaten up by the alcohol in E85?

A: NO!!! We started out on this journey with a complete gasoline system. We upped the flow 30% to compensate for the lower heat energy output of ethanol and left everything else the same just to see the effects. We switched to E85 at the end of the 2006 racing season and to date we have found zero deterioration or corrosion anywhere in our fuel system. We leave it in the system all the time. We don’t drain anything between races or use any type of fuel lube."

It maybe main stream and maybe the Z's lucky. Some manufactures though will 100% not have the right fuel lines and seals. Just depends what they wanted to install. Good for nissan if they went with the right stuff. But you still have to make sure the pump and injectors you go with can handle it because not all aftermarket stuff can.

1slow370 · 09-24-2014, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLami

I'm just pointing out the fact that you probably wouldn't roll up to someone you didn't know on the street or just met in general and call them "boy". Just didn't seem warranted. No worries though.

And, now that's getting to my question! I hate to ride the MS3, but through my experiences people on that platform really increase their timing. By as much as 5-6* advanced @ redline over similar 93 octane tunes. I know that with boost it's a different animal, and increasing timing along with boost is a 2 headed benefit.

At what point do we see diminishing returns on timing advance in regards to actual gains on this platform, and I'm curious to see how meth injection or E blends could help this.

Im interested in a blend, because ideally you wouldn't need to change much, if anything, in regards to fuel system.

I am na with a few special bolt on's and I am out of injector on 91. a 255 is an easy relatively cheap add on that settles the pump away and I am going to need bigger injectors anyway, so once i finish up with the cam and head gasket change I'm just going to throw in a surge pump with a 400lph pump in it (super overkill but I may add a small turbo) and some bigger injectors. The nylon/hard line on the z is fine for e85 it is the same stuff all the flex fuel vehicles use. There isn't much to change and the motor LOVES timing so from what I have seen there really is no point to not run full e85 (unless you are purely concerned with keeping fuel costs down lol)

RLami · 09-24-2014, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

I am na with a few special bolt on's and I am out of injector on 91. a 255 is an easy relatively cheap add on that settles the pump away and I am going to need bigger injectors anyway, so once i finish up with the cam and head gasket change I'm just going to throw in a surge pump with a 400lph pump in it (super overkill but I may add a small turbo) and some bigger injectors. The nylon/hard line on the z is fine for e85 it is the same stuff all the flex fuel vehicles use. There isn't much to change and the motor LOVES timing so from what I have seen there really is no point to not run full e85 (unless you are purely concerned with keeping fuel costs down lol)

Wow, I never would have guessed you would max out fuel on a 91 tune! welcome back to the port injection world for me lol.

Good info. appreciate it.

1slow370 · 09-24-2014, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLami

Wow, I never would have guessed you would max out fuel on a 91 tune! welcome back to the port injection world for me lol.

Good info. appreciate it.

With the proper setup you can indeed bump na horsepower by 70-100 I'm up 65 from my baseline now and hoping to add another 20-40 to it.

phunk · 09-25-2014, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

It's not tough though. Doesn't matter where you live, e85 is never enough of a gap to make up for its mpg loss cost wise. Power wise, sure spend the extra specially with boost.

Good for him on longevity. I'd love to see the inside of everything also how many times he had to adjust the tune like for winter when it jumps to e70.

Inspected everything at 3 years of continuous use, even occasionally letting the car sit for a month or two if winter got too nasty to drive it. Looked much cleaner in there than any car running regular ole gasoline (eww). Actually, most of the parts you wouldn't even know were used by looking inside them.

I never once a single time adjusted the tune for the varying levels of ethanol. In fact, I dont even pay attention to it or care. If youre worried about e70, you know whats worse? e10... now that is something I would never put into my car unless I was desperate. The varying levels of ethanol content seem to only be a problem for those with an ethanol content gauge. I have solved the concern by not having the gauge. (A few percent ethanol difference isnt going to make or break anything.. but it will bother you if you know)

Price difference compared to gasoline? I pay like $2.80 a gallon for it. Ya the gas mileage goes down a little bit but I have no idea what it feels like to care.

I don't noticeably spend any more or less on gas from the e85... any excessive fuel burning I do I blame on the turbos.

tvfreakazoid · 09-25-2014, 03:41 AM

U can get that much gain in HP for NA z engine using e85?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

With the proper setup you can indeed bump na horsepower by 70-100 I'm up 65 from my baseline now and hoping to add another 20-40 to it.

1slow370 · 09-25-2014, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

U can get that much gain in HP for NA z engine using e85?

not just e85 there was a lot of other stuff involved, I'm hoping between the cams, the new fuel and playing with the exhaust setup and tune i will get the rest of it. I'm into 5 digit territory with this little experiment so we will see what happens.

Eclipz · 09-25-2014, 06:17 PM

What are you experimenting with?

1slow370 · 09-25-2014, 07:43 PM

Lots of stuff

mainly coke.

( Click to show/hide )

Eclipz · 09-25-2014, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

Lots of stuff

mainly coke.

( Click to show/hide )

Do you have a build thread for all of this? I would LOVE to read it.

you seem to experiment a lot. I remember your plans for the vk56

09-25-2014, 07:43 PM	#74 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	Lots of stuff mainly coke. ( Click to show/hide ) Nah pretty much everything, drysump, pullies, mounts and drivetrain, everything attached to the heads is custom, the big jun cams, milled the deck a little, e85, ac delete, maybe some more stuff. I made 335whp with a drysump, cat back, pullies, and RTP's __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

09-25-2014, 06:17 PM	#73 (permalink)
Eclipz Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Tampa Posts: 360 Drives: 06 Eclipse GS Rep Power: 12	What are you experimenting with?