Nissan 370Z Forum
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Nissan 370Z Forum (http://www.the370z.com/)
-   Engine & Drivetrain (http://www.the370z.com/engine-drivetrain/)
-   -   Oil type and temp Questions (houston area) (http://www.the370z.com/engine-drivetrain/42303-oil-type-temp-questions-houston-area.html)

ChrisSlicks 09-09-2011 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuct (Post 1305545)
damn $50 just to increase to 200F? yikes

soooo im starting to rethink my oil cooler needs. normal driving here in sugar land/houston area im at 210-220. then when i get "spirted" haha it reaches 240-250. then quickly goes back down to around the 220 mark. i dont plan on tracking the car anytime soon but this horrible heat doesnt look like its letting up soon either.

i understand 200-220 is a great temp to drive at hard, but im at that temp while i putt to wal-mart...:\

what do yall think?

200F mocal plate
25 row oil cooler
If you're only getting to 240-250 occasionally I wouldn't do anything at all other than use good quality oil. If you're doing it every day then you might want to consider a cooler, the 25 row would be ample and would hold you to 220 max on the same kind of driving. Overcooling is just as harmful as overheating, although if you go big you can always add a block off if necessary.

sonic370 09-09-2011 08:58 PM
if it helps you feel better. get the oil cooler. under normal driving conditions
imho if you only drive it on the street its not needed...

i live close to the houston area and during this past summer even on 100 degree days i would stay around the 200 degree mark.....

but when the mood strikes and you kick her in the rear every once in a while
it will get up in the 220 to 240 range. but seems to cool down pretty quick.

choose an oil and stick with it. ask 5 guys and you will get 5 different answers. i use mobil 1 5w30.. im at 27.000 miles and it doesn't burn a drop..

roy'sz 09-10-2011 02:54 AM
yeah sonic i run mobil1 also. My dad has a 350 and has 170000 on it with nothin but mobil1. it definitely is a great oil. My car runs hot, i mean damn hot without the cooler. just cruisin down the road with ambient temps at 105 it was 230 and just very little spirited driving got me to 250. Im talkin 30-45 seconds.

PaulZ370 09-10-2011 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roy'sz (Post 1306428)
yeah sonic i run mobil1 also. My dad has a 350 and has 170000 on it with nothin but mobil1. it definitely is a great oil. My car runs hot, i mean damn hot without the cooler. just cruisin down the road with ambient temps at 105 it was 230 and just very little spirited driving got me to 250. Im talkin 30-45 seconds.
Same situation here with the heat in my 370Z. however, I think the car was still new and the tolerances were still pretty tight. I was in Houston running around on the interstates there at an ambient of around 101-103, and I was spiking temps of 240-245 with just a little sprint of about 30-40 seconds just as you mentioned. I did install a 19 row oil cooler (not tracking the car), and my temps now are running in the 180-200 tops, even with high ambient temps and very spirited driving. The downside is with the morning mid fifties ambients, I can barely get the temps up to 180 for the 7 mile drive to work. I will need to blank the cooler off for the winter for sure now with cooler temps/maybe some freezing ambients as well.

I run Valvoline full synthetic 10W30 with a Purolator PureOne filter by the way.

wstar 09-10-2011 07:57 AM
As discussed recently elsewhere, be sure you're doing something to get up to 220-ish on a very regular basis. Otherwise the condensation water in your engine doesn't boil off. Instead it mixes with the oil and the net effect is to turn the oil acidic prematurely.

Dark Sarcasm 09-10-2011 08:51 AM
OP - I live in Houston and my oil temps run at about 218 - 220 all day long, no matter what the temp is outside. I drive the Z pretty hard most of the time. Before you go and drop $800+ on an oil cooler setup I suggest you drive it a little more. Get the oil change to a synthetic and then see where the temps are. 220 - 230 is not a bad temp for the oil.

fuct 09-10-2011 02:03 PM
all this has me thinking about saving several houndred and just get a larger oil pan. not a spacer, but entire pan. if the temps are ok then adding an extra quart might just be all i need. hmmm

roy'sz 09-10-2011 03:34 PM
im not too sure on the 220ish comment in reguards to getting the temps up or condensation builds up. It is burnt off through the heat up of the oil, but could also lean towards running a cold oil and not gettin it to "burn off." kinda partial. i wouldn't know why anyone wouldn't put synthetic in the z, if your not its definitely a poor investment.

i also agree with the tight tolerance's causing a high temp for oil. I had my car 2months and nissan goodwilled me a cooler and installed it so there is no way for me to tell if it was just tolerance or my engine ran hot from the start. either way im glad i have the cooler because that means mods in the near future :D

MattP725 09-10-2011 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wstar (Post 1306475)
As discussed recently elsewhere, be sure you're doing something to get up to 220-ish on a very regular basis. Otherwise the condensation water in your engine doesn't boil off. Instead it mixes with the oil and the net effect is to turn the oil acidic prematurely.
I wouldn't really worry about this... the oil lasts 3 months max and generally gets heavier as it wears so even if water somehow enters the pan it isn't going to thin the oil too bad.

Also with the spring, the point I was trying to make was buying a 200 deg spring vs a 180 won't change anything... if you can't get to 180 where the original spring allows for full flow then a 200 will certainly not help. If you were trying to keep your oil at say 200 when it was consistently at 180 then that would be a dif story. At 160 both springs will just keep the thermostatic plate partially open.

It's simple... get a smaller cooler or block off plate. That is all that you can do to get your temps up to the proper place if you're not hitting High 100s.

Also if I ran 200-220 stock I would never have bought the cooler... I was idling at 220 and hitting 240-260 under some increased load. Never limped but didn't want to risk it. My tune took an extra hour while they let the engine cool off... not idea.

AggieDriver 09-14-2011 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug (Post 1304063)
College Station huh? You sure your car is not on fire?


Seriously, run your car for a few thousand mile before doing anything. I've seen several people say that after breakin, cars run a bit cooler and use less oil.
Car was bought as an 09 with 25k give or take. Break in was 20k ago. And since the fires are in Bastrop and Magnolia areas and I've been out to both helping friends move horses. Sucks, but College Station isn't on fire. It would appear that reading comprehension was lacking both when you read my post and when you read about where the fires are/were.



As an update:
Tonight making the trip to Houston and back I was seeing 235-245 going down at 4-5:30 and staying right around 225-230 on the way back between 9:30 and 11. Didn't do anything stupid, just cruising in 6th, well under 100, and not on it hard at all. To me, that's a need for a cooler when it doesn't get under 220 at night on the highway.

As of yet, no one has convinced me otherwise. Changing the oil hasn't made a bit of difference as far as I can tell, as I'm still seeing the high temps.


I appreciate all the good info here.... but

Could someone please point me to a good shop that would put in an aftermarket cooler in the Houston/College Station area?

And could someone please answer me weather or not I should be putting in a sandwich plate if I may be driving this car in colder climates/the coldest days we get here? Does that depend on the size of the cooler?

roy'sz 09-14-2011 02:58 AM
I don't know of a good garage being that i am in cali. Take it from me, i got the kit from nissan without it and am putting it on this weekend. You will need the mocal plate. I saw on a thread here that racerwarehouse.com has the kit for under 300 with braided lines. You should definitely hit them up. Or go through z1 for the setrab cooler. rcw has trucool i think?

I knew changing the oil wouldn't help. I hoped high for that too, then found out that it was synthetic to start with and it had that much of a heat issue. Have you contacted Nissan North America about it? If you find a dealership that is gt-r certified they should be able to help you install.

wstar 09-14-2011 08:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattP725 (Post 1307233)
I wouldn't really worry about this... the oil lasts 3 months max and generally gets heavier as it wears so even if water somehow enters the pan it isn't going to thin the oil too bad.
It's not about thinning the oil, and water doesn't "somehow" enter the pan...

The air around you contains humidity (especially in the Houston area). When the hot engine cools off overnight, the humidity in the air condenses out on the metal surfaces inside your engine (just like the dew you see on your car windows if you park outside) and drips into the oil, adding a small amount of water to your oil every time.

You also get fuel and combustion byproducts into your oil as part of its normal operation, via blowby on the piston rings. When those mix with water in the oil, they create an acid, which in turn will eat away at oil seals and promote engine corrosion.

Getting your oil regularly hot enough to boil off the condensed water slows down that process a lot, vs never getting up to temp and letting the oil become rapidly acidic. Water boils at 212F, so generally my target for a safety margin would be to ensure you get a few minutes of 220F oil temps on the gauge to boil off condensation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieDriver (Post 1312203)
As an update:
Tonight making the trip to Houston and back I was seeing 235-245 going down at 4-5:30 and staying right around 225-230 on the way back between 9:30 and 11. Didn't do anything stupid, just cruising in 6th, well under 100, and not on it hard at all. To me, that's a need for a cooler when it doesn't get under 220 at night on the highway.

As of yet, no one has convinced me otherwise. Changing the oil hasn't made a bit of difference as far as I can tell, as I'm still seeing the high temps.
If that's as hot as you can get it (and we're still in pretty bad summer heat), it's not strictly necessary to run a cooler. Those temps are within range. If you fear you will get the temps even higher driving in some other way (running the car harder), then try it and find out. I think you'll be surprised by what factors stabilize the temps and how hard it is to reach 260 on the street.

Quote:
And could someone please answer me weather or not I should be putting in a sandwich plate if I may be driving this car in colder climates/the coldest days we get here? Does that depend on the size of the cooler?
Even if you were exclusively driving in a very hot climate, I would get the Mocal sandwich plate. As noted above, it doesn't make a ton of difference to highway oil temps. However, you shouldn't be pushing the engine on cold oil, and the plate will save you a few minutes of your 10-15 minute wait for the oil to come up to temp when you start in the morning.

Aside from the Mocal plate, you may also want to make some blockoff plates for the cooler to use during the winter on highway drives, so you're not making the whole drive at like 170F, which is just bad. Again, as said above, overcooling the oil is bad too.

Zaggeron 09-14-2011 08:28 AM
Lots of good info here, but, AggieDriver, if you've already made up your mind to get an oil cooler, you might be better served opening a new thread with the specific question of recommendations for a good garage in the College Station area.

Lug 09-14-2011 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieDriver (Post 1312203)
Car was bought as an 09 with 25k give or take. Break in was 20k ago. And since the fires are in Bastrop and Magnolia areas and I've been out to both helping friends move horses. Sucks, but College Station isn't on fire. It would appear that reading comprehension was lacking both when you read my post and when you read about where the fires are/were.



As an update:
Tonight making the trip to Houston and back I was seeing 235-245 going down at 4-5:30 and staying right around 225-230 on the way back between 9:30 and 11. Didn't do anything stupid, just cruising in 6th, well under 100, and not on it hard at all. To me, that's a need for a cooler when it doesn't get under 220 at night on the highway.

As of yet, no one has convinced me otherwise. Changing the oil hasn't made a bit of difference as far as I can tell, as I'm still seeing the high temps.


I appreciate all the good info here.... but

Could someone please point me to a good shop that would put in an aftermarket cooler in the Houston/College Station area?

And could someone please answer me weather or not I should be putting in a sandwich plate if I may be driving this car in colder climates/the coldest days we get here? Does that depend on the size of the cooler?
I've heard really good things about jTran Studios for Z cars in general but haven't had any work by them myself.

JTran Studios


jTran Studios | Facebook

roy'sz 09-14-2011 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wstar (Post 1312375)
It's not about thinning the oil, and water doesn't "somehow" enter the pan...

The air around you contains humidity (especially in the Houston area). When the hot engine cools off overnight, the humidity in the air condenses out on the metal surfaces inside your engine (just like the dew you see on your car windows if you park outside) and drips into the oil, adding a small amount of water to your oil every time.

You also get fuel and combustion byproducts into your oil as part of its normal operation, via blowby on the piston rings. When those mix with water in the oil, they create an acid, which in turn will eat away at oil seals and promote engine corrosion.

Getting your oil regularly hot enough to boil off the condensed water slows down that process a lot, vs never getting up to temp and letting the oil become rapidly acidic. Water boils at 212F, so generally my target for a safety margin would be to ensure you get a few minutes of 220F oil temps on the gauge to boil off condensation.



If that's as hot as you can get it (and we're still in pretty bad summer heat), it's not strictly necessary to run a cooler. Those temps are within range. If you fear you will get the temps even higher driving in some other way (running the car harder), then try it and find out. I think you'll be surprised by what factors stabilize the temps and how hard it is to reach 260 on the street.



Even if you were exclusively driving in a very hot climate, I would get the Mocal sandwich plate. As noted above, it doesn't make a ton of difference to highway oil temps. However, you shouldn't be pushing the engine on cold oil, and the plate will save you a few minutes of your 10-15 minute wait for the oil to come up to temp when you start in the morning.

Aside from the Mocal plate, you may also want to make some blockoff plates for the cooler to use during the winter on highway drives, so you're not making the whole drive at like 170F, which is just bad. Again, as said above, overcooling the oil is bad too.
:shakes head:
ya don't neet your engine to get up to 212 to get the moisture out of the crankcase. Some people know just enough to get themselves in trouble. Do what you feel is necessary.

wstar 09-14-2011 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roy'sz (Post 1312883)
:shakes head:
ya don't neet your engine to get up to 212 to get the moisture out of the crankcase. Some people know just enough to get themselves in trouble. Do what you feel is necessary.
Are you implying that the water somehow boils off at less than 212F, and/or that 212F is an unhealthily high temperature for engine oil? Lay off the character attacks and bring some data :P

roy'sz 09-14-2011 03:37 PM
when you sip a cup of coffee is it boiling? NO, but it is releasing steam and that is the point my friend. Not trying to assasinate your character just simply implying that there is moisture that is burnt off well before waters boiling point. and if im not mistaken it would be from the heat source. :D

wstar 09-14-2011 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roy'sz (Post 1313243)
when you sip a cup of coffee is it boiling? NO, but it is releasing steam and that is the point my friend. Not trying to assasinate your character just simply implying that there is moisture that is burnt off well before waters boiling point. and if im not mistaken it would be from the heat source. :D
It's a lot more complicated than that even. True steam (water in gas form) is invisible. The "steam" you see rising from your coffee cup is steam that is already re-condensing back into water as it is cooled by the surrounding air. The degree to which water will steam off before the boiling point is also dependent on the humidity and temp of the surrounding environment.

The reason we call 212F the "boiling point" is because at standard atmospheric pressure, this temperature forces water to boil off. Any less and you're guessing at how much may have evaporated at a slow rate depending on local conditions.

I don't know the exact minimum point where you've heated the oil sufficiently to get rid of most of the water, but I think a few minutes at 220 on the gauge is a good guideline with some built in fudge factor. It's definitely past water's boiling point, and it's definitely not too hot for normal engine oil either.

It's too easy (especially in cooler weather) with an add-on oil cooler on the 370Z to make short trips (or even long highway-only trips) and never move the needle past 180. I've even seem some winter highway trips in TX where I had trouble keeping it above 160 without downshifting just to heat the oil up. A blockoff plate is a simple solution to help in those kinds of conditions.

Usually if I know my trip won't get the oil to 220, I just run in a lower gear for a while until I get there.

Dark Sarcasm 09-14-2011 05:31 PM
even if the water "boils off" isnt it going to condense back into water in the crackcase or valve covers? i guess some could escape thru the exhaust but more moist air is being brought in by the intake at the same time.

wstar 09-14-2011 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Sarcasm (Post 1313404)
even if the water "boils off" isnt it going to condense back into water in the crackcase or valve covers? i guess some could escape thru the exhaust but more moist air is being brought in by the intake at the same time.
The PCV system is what ventilates the crankcase's air. In the stock setup, the PCV draws fresh air from side hoses on your air intake tubes (past the filters, but before the throttle plates), and exhales "used" crankcase air (full of fuel/oil vapors, and some water vapor too) back into your intake manifold (after the throttle plates) to be burned in combustion. It's mostly to regulate pressure (so that blowby doesn't build up pressure in crankcase and blow out an oil seal), while also controlling emissions (or else you'd just vent the excess crankcase pressure to the outside air directly).

dawudih 09-20-2011 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug (Post 1304063)
College Station huh? You sure your car is not on fire?


Seriously, run your car for a few thousand mile before doing anything. I've seen several people say that after breakin, cars run a bit cooler and use less oil.
:iagree:

dawudih 09-20-2011 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wstar (Post 1305366)
Re: the Mocal questions, I called them a couple of years ago when I bought my thermo plate, I've posted this like 3 times on different threads here somewhere:

The Mocal starts with both passages (oil cooler + bypass) open. The thermostat closes the bypass passage gradually over roughly the 175-185F range. So at 185+, basically all of your oil flow is forced through the cooler. Under 175, most of it takes the bypass route (least resistance), but a small amount will still flow through the cooler as well since the passageway is open (and this helps warm up the cooler and lines themselves, so it's not a sudden temp shock).
This means that the oil cooler passage does not have the capability to close?

wstar 09-20-2011 09:07 PM
Correct, the Mocal thermo plate has a permanently open passage to the cooler, there's no valve on it. There's also a bypass passage that skips the cooler, and when both are open it's the path of least resistance and gets "most" of the flow. When the thermo gets hot, the valve closes off the bypass path.

roy'sz 09-23-2011 12:28 PM
I wouldn't necessarily call it the bypass. Part of the oil goes through the filter and back to your engine. Not all of the flow is designed to go throug the cooler. After it flows to the cooler it comes back through the filter and to the Engine. Other than that yeah that's pretty accurate.

AggieDriver 09-23-2011 08:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawudih (Post 1322620)
:iagree:
Again, please read. Car was purchased with 25k miles. It's broken in.

wstar 09-24-2011 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roy'sz (Post 1326839)
I wouldn't necessarily call it the bypass. Part of the oil goes through the filter and back to your engine. Not all of the flow is designed to go throug the cooler. After it flows to the cooler it comes back through the filter and to the Engine. Other than that yeah that's pretty accurate.
It's a bypass for the path through the cooler. When fully hot, all flow goes through the cooler (well, within mechanical limits, obviously there's no perfect seal on the valve).

Regardless of the bypass valve's position (regardless of temperature), all fluid goes through the filter (although the filter itself will also have a bypass that makes it practically useless at high flow rates).

Dark Sarcasm 09-25-2011 09:37 AM
Check Baker Nissan. They are off of 290 in the Houston area and probably about an hour and fifteen minutes from College Station.


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