Everyone with oil temp issues

kannibul

Yep

And by installing an oil cooler, they see that as a competition part, and may deny warranty coverage.

That said, I managed to get my oil temp to 250 yesterday, with some pretty hard accell/decell/accell - it was around 100F yesterday too...

I really had to get into it to get it that high, and it'd cool off pretty easily with some regular driving - in fact, I'd wager that the only time it'd get like that is if someone is REALLY pushing it on the street (much more so than what is legal), or is on a track.

kannibul

Some people have a maturity level that exceeds a 5yr old, and don't take comments on the internet seriously...

ZKindaGuy

Actually you are raising the issue of semantics in regards to the word "modification" so please allow me to explain how the MM Act applies to cover changes made by a car owner. I have an extensive understanding of how to apply the MM-Act as I have dealt with the Magnuson-Moss Act on several occcassions with several known Ford Mustang modification challenge issues. Read my entire answer as I do address the semantics issue and how the act can be applied to changes the car owner makes to a car.

Historically in general, the MM Act (and the courts are well aware of this) was made to protect the consumer, not the manufacturer. It was meant to cover any kind of merchandise and did not originate specifically out of issues dealing with cars. The MM-Act was made primarily to address two things:

1. Prevent a monopoly of service and OEM part replacement on the part of the manufacturer or in other words forcing the OWNER of any merchadise to always have to use OEM specified services or OEM specified parts. (I believe this speaks to your mention of "preventing tie-in sells")

2. Recognize the fact that the consumer and not the manufacturer is the OWNER of the merchadise consumed and that the manufacturer has no right to use their warranty as a "sword of damocles" over the head of the merchadise OWNER to mitigate their right as OWNER to choose and use 3rd-party parts that were made specific and to OEM-spec when replacing OEM parts original to the merchandise when they first bought it. (This is a reason you do not seem to be aware of.)

Historically how this act eventually made its way to be applied to cars was that prior to the MM-Act, car maufacturers in particular were abusing the consumers by forcing them to have to use OEM services (dealers) and OEM parts when doing any maintenance or fixing of the cars. When the consumer started to use 3rd-party-made replacement parts in an attempt to save money instead of the overpriced OEM parts the manufacturers countered by then starting to use the warranty as the way to force their OEM-usage intent.

As time went on the words "part replacement" and "modification" have become semantically intertwined over time which has caused some misunderstandings as to how the MM-Act applies or not..

Where the MM-Act specifically supports modifications being made to cars by the owner is when an owner of the car replaces OEM made parts using 3rd-party made parts that were specifically made, functionally spec'd and functionally intended to replace the manufacturers OEM parts. As long as the consumer/OWNER does not modify the 3rd-party part that will change its INTENDED FUNCTION and take the car out of OEM's intended spec TOLERANCES then the consumer / OWNER is free to use the 3rd-party made parts including CAI, any exhaust pieces, pullies and etc.

Notice I used the word TOLERANCES and not the word PERFORMANCE POTENTIAL. This is where the OEM manufacturer tries to take advantage of the consumer to deny the consumers claim. The OEM manufacturer tries to use "slight of hand" here to equate SPEC TOLERANCE with PERFORMANCE POTENTIAL and these are entirely two distinct beasts.

If a 3rd-party made part used by the consumer / owner as a "part replacement" keeps the car within the OEM part's mechanical specification on mechnical TOLERANCES then the OEM manufacturer has no basis to deny the warranty. If the car of the consumer / owner picks up extra HP or TQ or whatever other kind of PERFORMANCE POTENTIAL to be gained then the OEM manufacturer CANNOT use this gain as proof of going out of TOLERANCE nor can they deny the claim on the basis of a "modification" being made.

If however (1) using the 3rd-party part was manufactured and sold out of OEM spec TOLERANCE of the replaced OEM part and the intent of being out of spec was because this was the only way to achieve an increase in PERFORMANCE POTENTIAL or (2) the consumer / owner took a 3rd-party in-OEM spec part and makes an alteration to it that does cause it to go out of OEM spec TOLERANCE then then the OEM manufacturer can deny the warranty claim on the basis of a "modification".

So this should clear up and lay to rest the semantics going on here and the impacts onthe use of the MM-Act.

Let me say in conclusion that in general, the act itself has been interpreted by the courts to force the burden of proof onto the OEM manufacturer when denying a warranty claim by the owner who used 3rd-party parts. The OEM manufacturer of the merchandise consumed by the owner is required (by the court's interpretation of the MM-Act) to show that the parts used by the owner is 100% the root and total cause of the issue being denied by the manufacturer.

This is so precisely because of the semantic latitude as to what is or is not considered to be a "modification" and because of the OEM manufacturers attemtp to muddy the waters with their misleading use of the word TOLERANCE and PERFORMANCE POTENTIAL.

If the owner of the merchandise at issue takes the OEM manufacturer to court and the OEM manufacturer fails to bring TANGIBLE proof of 100% root cause failure based on the owner's use of the 3rd-party made part, the OEM manufacturer WILL lose the issue.

I hope this helps guys.

Robert_Nash

An excellent post but I'm not sure that it does clear up the issue.

As there is no engine oil cooler installed on the vehicle in stock form, adding an engine oil cooler is clearly not a "replacement part". Further, as the vehicle, from most accounts, does function as intended when used legally on the street, I would think that the addition of an engine oil cooler could be reasonably construed as a modification intended to improve performance (i.e. make the car trackable).

Finally, regardless of the burden of proof (not to discount that important fact), a consumer still has to initiate legal proceedings which is generally not an easy, inexpensive or quick process...even if the consumer ultimately prevails and is reimbursed for any legal expenses, etc, it's still not an easy process.

If I'm missing something critical here please elaborate...again, excellent post IMAHO.

__________________
Robert
-My Basset Hound Is Smarter Than Your Honor Student and Barack Obama -

kannibul

Great pair of posts...

antennahead

This isn't my350Z.com dude, takes a lot to incite a riot over here

John

cossie1600

Watch that for 2010, they will take away the oil temp gauge just to shut people up. (The reason why most water temp gauge are not linear)

Zeto

What is the optimum Motul oil weight? I'm sure it was addressed already but I can't find it. Also when should the first oil change be?

mannyz

Im sorry Kanibul for the missunderstanding but that is not my point, and that is not what the law says, even that I do understand your point.

Yes the law it has to do with add-ons and any aftermarket part, what the law protect you from is from dealers that take the practice of looking at a mod, and they want to void the warranty of the car.

For example, you can install an oil cooler, and if u have problems with transmission, they cannot look at the car and tell you that your car is out of warranty because you install something that dont belong to the car. Thats when the law protect you, they have to take the car as it is, perform the regular diagnostic AND if after performing the their job they get to a conclusion the problem with the transmission was the oil cooler then they have to put it in writing and charge you whatever.

IF you change ur Wheels, and you have problems with suspensions, they have to take your car and perform their job, then decided if they are going to void warranty or not, and only for the part related not the whole car.

If you install and aftermarket radio, and ur lights don't work, they have to chek the car.

Using your example, if you install Nitrous on your car, yes they can void the warranty if something happen to the engine, but ONLY if something happen. But the law says that they cannot deny you warranty just by looking at the car and see the bottle.

etc. I think u got my point now.

antennahead

Now that mine is past break-in (about 2500 miles on the car now), and I changed the oil to the Nissan esther, I seem to average between 220 and 230 with normal driving. It's in the 90's here now, and I hit 250 today with a little spirited driving, never exceeding about 5500 to 6000 RPM. I would venture to say had I pushed it a little longer time wise, and/or approached redline, I would have hit or slightly exceeded 260. I guess the 64 thousand dollar question for me is "are the internals used in the engine up to these temps for prolonged amounts of time, and what would constitute prolonged time"? I remember reading in another thread about the bearings not being as hard nor resilliant as they used to be, as a result on changes in the metalurgy brought about by environmental standards. I would love an engine expert to chime in or be consulted as to just how high of temps this engine will tolerate and for what length of time. That would answer alot of questions for those of us that don't track the car, but still enjoy driving it the way it was meant to be driven, and live in hot climates.

John

mannyz

Kannibul, I read some of your points and they are good. This is how it works:

You install and aftermarket part on your car, lets say the Intake. You got the intake from a professional company that work and have years of experience building those parts. Something breaks on your car, lets say a Sensor goes bad. You take it to the dealer, they cannot tell you, that your warranty is voided because you install the intakes and thats maybe the problem, without even taking your car in. Thats when the law protects you, they have to take your car, like normal, and perform the diagnostic. They come back to you and tell you "yes the intake cost the problem on the sensor" by LAW they have to tell you in writing what they did, their test and how they got into that conclusion.

Then you take that documentation to Stillen, and tell them "your item cost me this damage, here is the dealer report, now you have to pay for it" Stille is going to defend themself in writing that their product has nothing to do with that. Thats when you hire and attorney and someone has to pay for that, but you will have the two big ones, Nissan and Stillen figthing for their rights.

And remember, this is for something that is worth going trough all that trouble. Thats your desicion. But with my old car, I had a Eclipse 4G, I moded the car with springs, intake, exahust, lambo doors, paint, radio system, LSD, wheels, and they never gave me problems after I explained the law to the manager. But everything with respect, like adults, and no fights.

So is really up to you.

cossie1600

If you are very concern, change to Amsoil synthetic, you should see a slightly lower temp. They also tolerate heat much better than dino oil and are capable of 250-280F easily

spearfish25

I'm definitely not an expert, but the threads that claim 'soft metals' often list those to be 1) aluminum, 2) zinc and 3) tin. I looked up the melting point of these metals and aluminum was >600C, zinc >400C and tin just over 200C. I'd be amazed to hear any internal engine components are made nearly entirely of tin. Thus, any component deemed 'soft' by these threads is really not at any risk of melting at engine temps under 300C. I doubt they'd be very deformable so far from their melting points as well.

mannyz

Let me throw an very good example guys about the Oil and Warranty.

Are you guys planning to go to the dealer and request the Nissan Special Oil for the oil change? The manual says they have that special oil to protect your engine!

Now here is the question, should Nissan void your warranty if something happen to the engine, because you are not using the oil that Nissan Says you have to use?

ZKindaGuy

Unfortunately I really wasn't addressing the oil cooler question...I was addressing strictly the confusion about the MM-Act. But to extend my answer to address the question. I agree that from the OEM perspective the added 3rd-party oil cooler would NOT be viewed by the OEM as a "replacement" part because it isn't part of the stock configuration to begin with and under the strictest interpretation it would be considered a "modification".

Personally I think the OEM would be hard pressed finding any evidence of something being out of OEM spec TOLERANCE unless the OEM can show that there is a known and provable damage to an engine that a lowered temperature of 30 to 40 degrees can cause.

The only way I could see them making an argument would be based upon the season of the year, specifically the winter time. They might be able to claim that as a result of the added oil cooler the oil was prevented from reaching an effective viscosity so as to be able to lubricate the engine internals properly.

Even in this case the burdon would still be on the mnaufacturer to have to show how the addition of the oil cooler is 100% the cause of whatever the problem is.

So I believe there is some certain wiggle room here for a possible TEST case to extend the MM-Act to include situations such as this. It must be understood by the car owner however that this action would be a gamble with no certain outcome because it is what it is...a TEST CASE.

Personally I would want to protect my investment so I would probably add the oil cooler and then take my chances in court because there is an argument that can be made for engine damaage as a result of excessive and sustained heat due to lack of any cooling device in the stock design of the car. Perhaps a good OEM negligence claim as well.