370Z's and E85?
 

Coming from the EVO world where E85 fuel is becoming the NORM. has anyone been running E85 with the VQ37's? Is it something that is possible right now? Are the people able to Flash a ECU for E85 yet?

Also.. what do you think is possible with E85 and a bolt on turbo kit on stock block.. 550-600whp?

Instruction manual explicitly states NOT to use E85.

Well, you CAN'T use E85 if your car's fuel system is not designed for it, even if there are ECU flashes out.

Should just need ECU flash bigger injectors and fuelpump right?

More than likely, yes. Would need a custom tune preferably since you burn about 30-40% more fuel using E85 I believe, for the same performance.

In addition to the upgraded fuel system to resist the corrosive nature of E85.

a side affect of using E85 could be a slightly lower oil temp do to the fact the combustion is cooler. maybe?

As Liquid said, E85 is corrosive. If you use it in a system not designed for it it will eat through seals, and just about anything else not designed to handle it. BAD JUJU! I'm even worried about shops that sell a blend and aren't required to post signs or anything.

^^^ Yeah, I'm willing to pay a couple more cents to fill up at a 100% gas station.

We will need a tune and bigger injectors. Is there a ecu tuner out there that can modify the ecu tune?

I ran e85 on my sky redline and went from 290 whp 340 torque to 315 whp 390 torque and yes that is to the wheels on the Trifecta tunes respectively.

E85 will give a lot more power properly tuned. It like race fuel and it goes quick!

Corvettes just need a tune. Nothing else. Nada. Has anyone actually confirmed the 370z fuel system would not handle it?

why would the 370z fuel system not handle e85? guess my 370z never got the memo.

What i figured. Plenty of stock fuel system e85 vettes out thee, and bigger pump and objectors as well. I don't think the 370z should be any different, except with vvl it should see serious gains.

There are some in-tank hoses in the EVO X that have proven to not hold up to E85.. the little white pressure lines inside the fuel pump assembly. The 370z has a couple similar hoses, but they are black and I am pretty sure they are either Nylon or Teflon, which would be fine. So far they are holding up. In the next month or two I will be inside my tank again so I will see if they are swelling up or not. If they are, they are no big deal as you can easily replace them with 5/16 in-tank hose if needed.

let us know cause i was wondering the same thing and wondering why everybody was saying the 370 couldn't handle e85.

if i find any of those in-tank hoses are swelling up some day i will post about it... but there is no reason to wait for that information before doing the conversion if someone wanted to. If they wanted to be extra cautious they could just replace those 3 hoses while upgrading the fuel pump (something youre probably going to have to do for e85 anyway, depending on your HP level.. but youre probably boosted if youre going to bother with e85).

Is there a language barrier here?

Seriously? The Sky Redline was a forced induction vehicle - of course you're going to see good gains from E85. And to be honest, that gain seems pretty modest compared to some gains Ive seen in other FI applications. The 370Z, NATURALLY ASPIRATED, will not see gains like that more than likely.

We (or at least I) were talking how it theoretically couldnt, since I didnt know how much fuel the stock pump could push and what pressure it could maintain, much less how much the injectors could flow. Are you running a stock fuel pump and stock injectors? Because by your sig, it sure looks like you arent, in which case my point remains the same for a forced induction build...

E85 or pure bioethanol is presented as fuel with better performance and better efficiency. But it is not true! You have to optimize and increase Compression ratio (some turbo engines with E85 have bigger than 18:0). Turbo is helping to optimize A/F ratio which is needed, because bioethanol is not so efficient as gas. It has 30% less power (mean 30% efficiency) if is combusted in similar way like gas (if you just switch to E85 in your Z).

And why is so presented as more powerful and efficient? It has AKI or RON over 130! So you can optimize combustion process to use bigger compression ration which will increase efficiency and add power. In Norweigen and Sweden are used D95 buses - bioethanol with some additives is used in diesel engines for get even better efficiency and with its really big AKI index it is possible.

Why it is suggested not to use is fact, that bioethanol with over 10% in GAS is really corrosive and get outside moisture. For this reason is not transported by pipes like gas, or diesel.
All seals have to be corrosive free. It acts really bad with pure aluminum. So engine pistons and other components made from aluminum have to be protected with some non corrosive layer.

VW/AUDI forbid to use 5% or more bioethanol in Gas. But know is law for adding to 10% of adding bioethanol in Europe Union!

Im assuming you were just piggy-backing on what I was saying, but you kinda re-presented info I already stated earlier in this very thread lol. You just used a whole bunch of big words to say its octane rating is higher and, with a motor properly set up for the application, you can increase compression/boost safely without fear of detonating. Im not saying you're wrong and it IS good info...just already stated is all.

Or maybe you misunderstood me saying, "Seriously?" - I meant it in the MOST sarcastic way haha


Also another obvious reason as to why it may not necessarily be safe to run in a stock 370Z, but thats pretty interesting to hear about VW/Audi's requirements, and just getting gas in the EU means you're breaking their requirements - I didnt know that.

I have seen ls7's after a season on e85 and the pistons were fine. Very clean, too! On a stock c6z, with just a tune and e85 in the tank you will gain about 20whp or so and lose a couple mpg from what I have seen others do. I know the Nissan isn't a Chevy, but aluminum pistons are aluminum pistons, etc. The only research I did on e85 was as relates to my vette, and noone I know of in the c6 community has had any side effect from running it except a cleaner engine, more power, and a few mpg less.

Yes, I meant it just confirming your opinion but a little bit different with some numbers.

It is forbidden for BWA engines for example - you know them as original 2.0TFSI (also like 2.0TSI in later VW) and 200HP. It is because most of components are not resistive to corrosion process caused from bioethanol. Fuel pumps are failing in 2 year warranty in these engines. But my TT with that engine had 80 kms and 4 years, when I sold it with no issues except fuel pump and ignition coils. Actually this engine is used in many popular cars in Europe Octavia RS and these cars can do 500 kms with that engine.
But in these years it was just 5% of bioethanol. 10% is new and defined by law (you couldn't buy pure gasoline). In US is also added 5% at least to Gas.

And plus side - bioethanol is natural cleaner for engine and more efficient/aggressive than additives, so can clean carbonization, which is common problem to all TFSI and FSI engine even after 4000 kms. So in older engine you can observe bigger consumption of OIL not caused by corrosion, but by cleaner engine.

Based on your first sentence here, I would say you're ok so far... But I'll let you know.

I agree there is no point for a NA car.

I ran e85 before switching the pump, but while still turbo. I didn't dyno to see how far exactly it would go... But it will keep up on a NA car I assure you :)

Stock injectors, probably not enough even for NA... But I don't know for sure cause I don't know what size they are

NA yeah, I'd hope so. But not FI, which makes the whole point moot as Im sure you agree lol

5-10 years ago fuel systems were made with rubber seals and diaphrams that couldn't handle alcohol now a days 99% of all vehicles are compatable with it.

OF COURSE THE MANUAL SAYS NOT TO USE IT, it will not work without at least a reflash and since reflashes aren't covered by nissan it basically just a liabilty notice just like a tdi manual telling you not to put gas in it(no-brainer) a stock car will not run on e85. our engines relatively high CR of 11:1 makes it a great candidate for e85 especially considering the sophisticated anti knock logic nissan had to use there is room on the table for e85. as to the injectors, maybe in a stock motor you could get away with it just check your duty cycle and see if there is room to go maybe gtm could tell you on that.

also there are all aluminum flex fuel motors with no special coatings, this is actually the norm. Also there are no e85 motors i know of that are running 18:1 base CR. Thats crazy almost diesel territory. turbo applications may have an 18:1 dynamic ratio (adding in boost pressure over base), but most n/a e85 engines are flex fuel meaning they are in the 10-12:1 range static cr because they still have to work on gas. e85 is all about timing advance and running pig rich on it for na power, emission state guys love it because its harder than hell to fail a sniffer on e85

I'm putting my Z on e85 :).

Cool story.

Are you boosted? Because if not, you're wasting your money, really...

Not quite so cut and dry but for the most part I agree. I suspect on a NA application we would need bigger injectors along with a tune to see any gains. The gains come from the advancing the timing a lot more before knock. Once VVEL is cracked you can run lots of lift before knock, which would give good gains.

The question should be is it really worth the hassle for the limited gains on a NA application? I suspect as it sits now there might be a 10hp increase with a good tune. Is that 10hp worth being tethered to e85? If you just race your car the answer could be yes. If you live in the Mid-West where a lot of gas stations carry e85 the answer could be yes. But if you use your car normally and you don’t live in the Mid-West it would be one big hunt after another looking for fuel unless you have a way to swap ECU maps. So for the majority I think it probably isn’t worth it.

Here is a quote from a friend of mine that tried it on a heavily modified NA daily driver S2000. He is really good at tuning as well.
Not worth it. I got a few ft-lbs of torque, but I could only get 200 miles out of a tank on the highway. Since there are so few gas stations that carry E85, you have to really plan your trips perfectly. It’s also a bit of a pain to switch back and forth between E85 and E10, since mixing them creates E??, which throws off the tune. You basically have to drive until it’s almost totally empty, then flash to the other tune while filling with the new fuel.

No insult intended, but you repeated what's been said several times in this thread I believe lol.

N/A E85 builds are NOT worth the hassle, IMHO. Minor power gains to be had. Boosted, on the other hand...

It's actually n/a. And I've seen really nice gains on all motor cars actually, so guess we will see :).

Examples? And define, "nice gains". 5-10 HP at most really isnt much of a nice gain for all the hassle you need to put up with (for example, replacing your entire fuel system really, tuning, and finding a reliable source of E85 that doesnt go to E70 or so during the winter time...)

Your money is better spent elsewhere, almost guaranteed.

ftfy


:d

I've seen anything from 12-20 whp gains, and I live by a pump that's e85 year round, not to mention I work at a shop so the cost was actually quite worth what others would spend even to see 5-10, so even if it's 5-10 in my case its quite alright.

I dont even want to think what the cost in parts alone would be for everything to pick up only that much horsepower. Injectors, fuel pump, maybe some lines and fittings, a tune...at least $1500-2000 for a tiny bump in power.

But hey, in for the dyno charts. Before and after, please.

Not that I would waste any time converting to E85 on a NA 370z... but as a heads up, nothing in the fuel system needs to be replaced for compatibility.

The 370z fuel system is E85 compatible. I have had not a drop of anything but E85 in my daily driven Z for the last 15,500 miles now.

All it will really need is injectors and a tune. Maybe a pump but I bet the pump will keep up.

I have an E85 station 3 minutes from my driveway. Its still a pain in the ***, because my car is married to that station. There are very few stations that actually carry it, even though the websites that show you all the E85 stations say there are 20x more... none of them actually carry it any longer.

I only deal with it to increase my odds of keeping these junk VQ connecting rods in 1 piece with boost.

Thanks for the insight on the fuel system, Phunk - I was going off of assumptions as far as the fuel pump, but if you're running it now, cool.

Thanks for also reinforcing my feelings that an N/A E85 370 is silly :-p

Thank you phunk, e85 also runs a whole lot cleaner in your car, and yes the avg person would just need a walbro 255 and a injector that will handle the power whatever ur wanting to do. My system is bigger than what I need but I hope to supercharge it when im done seeing what the car does with this and seeing how it feels, But for now the car will be tuned on id1000's and a walbro 400 with long tubes,gen 3 intakes, amuse y pipe and exhaust. So we will just wait and see. As for the people that insist in complaining about price and gains. It didn't cost me what it may cost the avg person but even if it did I would say for the price and gains I think u may receive it would be much different than buying intakes and test pipes price or gains whys and every extra bit helps. As for me I'm wanting a certain amount of power but most importantly I'm chasing down decent numbers and a very nice powerband.

Well... I cannot say for sure if the factory fuel pump will be able to keep up in volume with E85, but I predict that it will. I am personally running an Aeromotive 340lph fuel pump upgrade inside the stock fuel pump housing... my car is twin turbo and there was no chance the stock pump was going to keep up, especially with E85.

But based on some hear-say I have come across with people who have tested the limits of the stock fuel pump in higher HP scenarios, I think there is a good chance it will be able to keep up with a NA E85 car.

I am using the ID1000s and the Aeromotive 340 for my setup... it kept up pressure no problem at 524rwhp at 7.5psi I think it was... I ended up turning the car up to 9.5-10psi after the dyno... I cannot tell for certain if I am loosing any pressure on top because my only fuel pressure gauge is one of those mini ones in the engine bay... but I am not seeing any leaning out in my wideband or having to majorly jump up the injector duty cycle.