I want a built shortblock but....

JB-370z · 08-12-2010, 11:22 PM

I always try to remind people of a few things when talking about dreams of being boosted or higher output of their current power levels. See, most people have this majic little hp number inwhich they have in their little heads that will satisfiy them if they hit it. 90% of my buds end up hitting this little number and, suddenly it becomes unsatisfactory once the goal was met. Almost like a "Hit it and Quit it" type deal. My opinion, is that you will prolly....not be happy with the power/to/price ratio of going N/A.

These prices reflect labor:
1. N/A for about 6-12k depending on how you build it out (Low power output with a high price tag)
2. Turbo for about 11-15k (High output and scalable on the fly to ones needs)
3. SC for about 8-9k (Mid-range power output but not scalable AKA: Stuck with what you got but; for a sweet price)

With a supercharger you really are getting your money worth and some. Turbo is not for everyone and can cost a 3rd more but power can be adjusted on the fly. Going fully built N/A on a VQ37 has never really been done so I can't start to make assumptions. It my be worth it, but something tells me it is not. Just my 2cents

BGTV8 · 08-13-2010, 03:49 AM

Generically speaking, an NA engine makes its power because of 2 things, increased compression (requires full-race fuel) to increase torque. but there is little point going beyond 12.5:1 because of the exotic fuels required, and increased revs to shift the torque up the rev curve and therefore increase HP.

The former requires stronger pistons. gas-flowed heads (inlet and exhaust) and better head clamping to withstand a bigger "bang" which means more torque, and the latter requires a stronger crank/rods/fasteners and possibly block to decelerate and accelerate the piston as they rotate thru top and bottom dead centre and hold everything in the proper spot so the engine does not self-destruct.

"If" the heads will flow enough air at elevated rpm's, then you can consider 120-150bhp/litre if everything is radical (re-engineered oiling system to support elevated rev's, big-port heads, cams to match the objectives, port matched inlet and exhaust, improved coolling ot handle additional heat rejection, blah, blah).

The real question is "what are you after" - a dyno pull number, a car you can still drive on the street, a race car ????

I have been racing sports cars for 40 years ... and an NA big-power engine is always a compromise - in terms of ulitmate driveability, absolute levels of power and the reliability that goes with it ..... so the first thing is to establish exactly what you are looking for.

Then you can figure out the next step.

Most s/c will increase torque of a std engine by 50%, dead easy and simple. If you don;t drive it at WOT all the time, it will probably live for a while

Most Turbo systems that do not drop the compression will give infinitely adjustable torque for a relatively short time before detonation or a melted piston turns the engine to custard.

A fully engineered turbo installation can offer a heap, but they are expensive if not OEM engineered, as you are sometimes forced to do the engineering R&D yourself, and by fully engineered, I mean crank, pistons, rods, bearing package, heads and head gaskets, electronics to manage detonation risk etc).

Have fun - you are talking about ground breaking .... with NA

SkyZ · 08-13-2010, 10:36 AM

i dont mean to thread jack or at least thats not my intention, but ppl on posting on this seem to know a great deal. I am also looking for n/a tuning options. I've always liked revving the nuts of n/a car. i'm looking for high engine response and controllability.

Prosport Gauges · 08-13-2010, 02:26 PM

yea im kind of curious why you want a really high compression when you plan on doing FI

bullitt5897 · 08-13-2010, 02:47 PM

Honestly if your going to do N/A stick with N/A don't go FI. Thacker and logistics are a nightmare. I tried it with my s2000 and wish I would have just went FI first... If your going N/A talk to Sam @ GTM since he has the best stroker kit out there and I know that's what your wanting. Seriously, there is ALOT that goes into a big motor build like mine. You have to run a full standalone ecu... I will have a stock ecu with a special tune so I can pass emissions but that's it. Literally a tune to get me to the testing facility and pass the obd 2 scans and then unplug it for the ride back home

NYBladeZ · 08-13-2010, 05:05 PM

Bullitt, will running a standalone ecu finally allow you to mess with vvel?? You know what it is man, the Z aftermarket is still growing, it's a big investment that I won't want to rush, shortchange, and regret. I appreciate guys like you bullitt and dreamer being the Z pioneers.

NYBladeZ · 08-13-2010, 05:15 PM

bullitt, you've been following my responses. Yeah man I want the stroker, the thing is that I don't want the TT kit. I know it's what produces the most power but I want to keep the Z streetable for now (meaning atleast the next 3 years). I love my Z and I have a hell of a strong motor, she made 296.4whp with test pipes only! That was the last of 3 dyno runs. Since then I've put on my homemade bazooka exhaust and LTH's. I think I'll go S/C but I don't want less than 450whp safely. I'm trying to decide what's the best way to go about it.

bullitt5897 · 08-13-2010, 10:14 PM

Stroker won't yield the 450rwhp you want unless you drop a sh*t load of money onto your stroker motor. If you do try you will be like us pioneering the way. If you don't wanna go ridiculous on the power do the stroker then custom supercharger from GTM

JB-370z · 08-13-2010, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYBladeZ

bullitt, you've been following my responses. Yeah man I want the stroker, the thing is that I don't want the TT kit. I know it's what produces the most power but I want to keep the Z streetable for now (meaning atleast the next 3 years). I love my Z and I have a hell of a strong motor, she made 296.4whp with test pipes only! That was the last of 3 dyno runs. Since then I've put on my homemade bazooka exhaust and LTH's. I think I'll go S/C but I don't want less than 450whp safely. I'm trying to decide what's the best way to go about it.

Why is a turbo not "streetable". Ok So I understand that you want to keep your LTH's, done. So that knocks Turbo out of the equation. Also LTH's make you lose boost on a S/C, so that is an "ify". So I see why you would want to go N/A. But trust me brother I don't think this is the smart route, but I could be wrong. Fitting those LTH's into this equation is going to be hard but not impossible. As soon as dreamer gets his B!tch @$$ on the dyno we with know more about if LTH's are worth buying if considering a sc setup.

I am forsure not going to beat a dead horse, so this will for sure be fun to see what a fully built VQ37 in the N/A mode can do. And I promise I wont take your dyno graph and the the final cost, and make a power to cost ratio

This might even be cheaper and faster than building a na VQ37

1slow370 · 08-14-2010, 07:21 AM

the bench racing number for a 4.5l with bolt ons is about 360 wheel, and i think you add 5% per point of increased compression can't quite remember off hand

NYBladeZ · 08-14-2010, 12:27 PM

^^ Are you speaking from personal experience or did you find that info somewhere? With your figures you're looking at 380whp at the wheels.

Yeah the LTH's are a sticking point but it's more then that. S/C kits, while not generating as much heat as TT's, will still eventually destroy stock equipment ie. stock cats. I think the inability to match LTH's with current SC kits is more the limitations of the kit than the increased flow of the headers. I'd be willing to guess that if you ran a kit with a full standalone, where you'd be able to tune VVEL, the headers wouldn't be a problem.

JB, your car is a monster man, but a TT isn't for me right now. I'm sure I'll change my mind a million times before I make the decision but I'm leaning toward an SC kit and maybe down the line if and when I do a full stroker build going TT. Hopefully by then I'll have enough $ where it won't be a limiting factor, not all of us can spend like bullitt right now.

I'll be keeping a sharp eye on the progress of the GTM and Stillen kits, RCZ loves his stillen kit and he's running headers and HFC's in time I'm sure it'll all get figured out.

This thread has been filled with informative facts and opinions thus far...keep them coming!

SE · 08-18-2010, 02:30 AM

I've been contemplating the same things you have. You can't beat the powerband of a NA motor, and boost is definitely easier. With that being said, the aftermarket on the VQ37 motor hasn't really picked up it's full potential yet. If there were a cam and VVEL tuning available, I would definitely have gone for it, but the way things have been going it doesn't seem very likely that this will happen. You won't be able to uncork the full potential of an NA VQ37 unless someone can crack the VVEL and do the legwork on cams/shims etc.

With the TT/supercharged route it seems easy to just up the boost and be done with it. If your boost isn't substantial you can always have a reliable platform.

NA power is always harder and cheaper to obtain the same HP numbers with.

Jamaica · 08-18-2010, 03:21 AM

Be patient my friend. Two companies are coming up with supercharger kits by the end of the year. Two TT kits are also coming out by January. Its still a new car. This is why I am waiting. I am in the same shows your are in. I honestly believe supercharger is that best way to go for a streetable car and a daily driver. Planning on going with LTH and supercharger just waiting on production.

08-12-2010, 11:22 PM	#16 (permalink)
JB-370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 1,859 Drives: Stage 2 Twin Turbos Rep Power: 19	I always try to remind people of a few things when talking about dreams of being boosted or higher output of their current power levels. See, most people have this majic little hp number inwhich they have in their little heads that will satisfiy them if they hit it. 90% of my buds end up hitting this little number and, suddenly it becomes unsatisfactory once the goal was met. Almost like a "Hit it and Quit it" type deal. My opinion, is that you will prolly....not be happy with the power/to/price ratio of going N/A. These prices reflect labor: 1. N/A for about 6-12k depending on how you build it out (Low power output with a high price tag) 2. Turbo for about 11-15k (High output and scalable on the fly to ones needs) 3. SC for about 8-9k (Mid-range power output but not scalable AKA: Stuck with what you got but; for a sweet price) With a supercharger you really are getting your money worth and some. Turbo is not for everyone and can cost a 3rd more but power can be adjusted on the fly. Going fully built N/A on a VQ37 has never really been done so I can't start to make assumptions. It my be worth it, but something tells me it is not. Just my 2cents __________________ ll Baker Tuning ll GTM ll Powerhouse Amuse ll HKS ll Up-Rev ll iForged ll AP Racing ll Pioneer ll SPL ll Bride ll Top Secret ll OS Giken ll GTM Stage 2 Twin Turboed 370z (First in Texas, Thanks To Baker Tuning) Last edited by JB-370z; 08-12-2010 at 11:38 PM.

08-13-2010, 02:47 PM	#20 (permalink)
bullitt5897 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North GA Posts: 6,831 Drives: Twin Turbo Z34 Rep Power: 3682	Honestly if your going to do N/A stick with N/A don't go FI. Thacker and logistics are a nightmare. I tried it with my s2000 and wish I would have just went FI first... If your going N/A talk to Sam @ GTM since he has the best stroker kit out there and I know that's what your wanting. Seriously, there is ALOT that goes into a big motor build like mine. You have to run a full standalone ecu... I will have a stock ecu with a special tune so I can pass emissions but that's it. Literally a tune to get me to the testing facility and pass the obd 2 scans and then unplug it for the ride back home __________________ *Shop Cars: 2013 318whp Nismo VspecII 370z SOLD, 2009 1000hp+ 93oct 4.0L TT 370z Fast Intentions STAGE 4 #054*

08-13-2010, 05:05 PM	#21 (permalink)
NYBladeZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: New York Posts: 2,158 Drives: Lotus Exige S Rep Power: 20	Bullitt, will running a standalone ecu finally allow you to mess with vvel?? You know what it is man, the Z aftermarket is still growing, it's a big investment that I won't want to rush, shortchange, and regret. I appreciate guys like you bullitt and dreamer being the Z pioneers. __________________ 2009 Carbon Fiber/Red 370z aka Trish: Sports Package, Meisterschaft full catback, Fast Intentions Longtube Headers, Injen Long Tube Intakes, UpRev Tune: Sold 2008 Lotus Exige S Club Racer aka Bella, always leaves me smiling

08-13-2010, 05:15 PM	#22 (permalink)
NYBladeZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: New York Posts: 2,158 Drives: Lotus Exige S Rep Power: 20	bullitt, you've been following my responses. Yeah man I want the stroker, the thing is that I don't want the TT kit. I know it's what produces the most power but I want to keep the Z streetable for now (meaning atleast the next 3 years). I love my Z and I have a hell of a strong motor, she made 296.4whp with test pipes only! That was the last of 3 dyno runs. Since then I've put on my homemade bazooka exhaust and LTH's. I think I'll go S/C but I don't want less than 450whp safely. I'm trying to decide what's the best way to go about it. __________________ 2009 Carbon Fiber/Red 370z aka Trish: Sports Package, Meisterschaft full catback, Fast Intentions Longtube Headers, Injen Long Tube Intakes, UpRev Tune: Sold 2008 Lotus Exige S Club Racer aka Bella, always leaves me smiling

08-13-2010, 10:14 PM	#23 (permalink)
bullitt5897 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North GA Posts: 6,831 Drives: Twin Turbo Z34 Rep Power: 3682	Stroker won't yield the 450rwhp you want unless you drop a sht load of money onto your stroker motor. If you do try you will be like us pioneering the way. If you don't wanna go ridiculous on the power do the stroker then custom supercharger from GTM __________________ Shop Cars: 2013 318whp Nismo VspecII 370z SOLD, 2009 1000hp+ 93oct 4.0L TT 370z Fast Intentions STAGE 4 #054*

08-13-2010, 03:49 AM	#17 (permalink)
BGTV8 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: 03350 Australia Posts: 1,514 Drives: 09 Nissan 370Z M6 Rep Power: 39973	Generically speaking, an NA engine makes its power because of 2 things, increased compression (requires full-race fuel) to increase torque. but there is little point going beyond 12.5:1 because of the exotic fuels required, and increased revs to shift the torque up the rev curve and therefore increase HP. The former requires stronger pistons. gas-flowed heads (inlet and exhaust) and better head clamping to withstand a bigger "bang" which means more torque, and the latter requires a stronger crank/rods/fasteners and possibly block to decelerate and accelerate the piston as they rotate thru top and bottom dead centre and hold everything in the proper spot so the engine does not self-destruct. "If" the heads will flow enough air at elevated rpm's, then you can consider 120-150bhp/litre if everything is radical (re-engineered oiling system to support elevated rev's, big-port heads, cams to match the objectives, port matched inlet and exhaust, improved coolling ot handle additional heat rejection, blah, blah). The real question is "what are you after" - a dyno pull number, a car you can still drive on the street, a race car ???? I have been racing sports cars for 40 years ... and an NA big-power engine is always a compromise - in terms of ulitmate driveability, absolute levels of power and the reliability that goes with it ..... so the first thing is to establish exactly what you are looking for. Then you can figure out the next step. Most s/c will increase torque of a std engine by 50%, dead easy and simple. If you don;t drive it at WOT all the time, it will probably live for a while Most Turbo systems that do not drop the compression will give infinitely adjustable torque for a relatively short time before detonation or a melted piston turns the engine to custard. A fully engineered turbo installation can offer a heap, but they are expensive if not OEM engineered, as you are sometimes forced to do the engineering R&D yourself, and by fully engineered, I mean crank, pistons, rods, bearing package, heads and head gaskets, electronics to manage detonation risk etc). Have fun - you are talking about ground breaking .... with NA

08-13-2010, 10:36 AM	#18 (permalink)
SkyZ Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 382 Drives: 09 370z PG M6 Rep Power: 16	i dont mean to thread jack or at least thats not my intention, but ppl on posting on this seem to know a great deal. I am also looking for n/a tuning options. I've always liked revving the nuts of n/a car. i'm looking for high engine response and controllability.

08-13-2010, 02:26 PM	#19 (permalink)
Prosport Gauges Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Tampa Posts: 339 Drives: 2009 370z Rep Power: 0	yea im kind of curious why you want a really high compression when you plan on doing FI

08-14-2010, 07:21 AM	#25 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	the bench racing number for a 4.5l with bolt ons is about 360 wheel, and i think you add 5% per point of increased compression can't quite remember off hand __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

08-14-2010, 12:27 PM	#26 (permalink)
NYBladeZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: New York Posts: 2,158 Drives: Lotus Exige S Rep Power: 20	^^ Are you speaking from personal experience or did you find that info somewhere? With your figures you're looking at 380whp at the wheels. Yeah the LTH's are a sticking point but it's more then that. S/C kits, while not generating as much heat as TT's, will still eventually destroy stock equipment ie. stock cats. I think the inability to match LTH's with current SC kits is more the limitations of the kit than the increased flow of the headers. I'd be willing to guess that if you ran a kit with a full standalone, where you'd be able to tune VVEL, the headers wouldn't be a problem. JB, your car is a monster man, but a TT isn't for me right now. I'm sure I'll change my mind a million times before I make the decision but I'm leaning toward an SC kit and maybe down the line if and when I do a full stroker build going TT. Hopefully by then I'll have enough $ where it won't be a limiting factor, not all of us can spend like bullitt right now. I'll be keeping a sharp eye on the progress of the GTM and Stillen kits, RCZ loves his stillen kit and he's running headers and HFC's in time I'm sure it'll all get figured out. This thread has been filled with informative facts and opinions thus far...keep them coming! __________________ 2009 Carbon Fiber/Red 370z aka Trish: Sports Package, Meisterschaft full catback, Fast Intentions Longtube Headers, Injen Long Tube Intakes, UpRev Tune: Sold 2008 Lotus Exige S Club Racer aka Bella, always leaves me smiling

08-18-2010, 02:30 AM	#27 (permalink)
SE A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 4,236 Drives: 370z/STI/EVO X/IS-F Rep Power: 23	I've been contemplating the same things you have. You can't beat the powerband of a NA motor, and boost is definitely easier. With that being said, the aftermarket on the VQ37 motor hasn't really picked up it's full potential yet. If there were a cam and VVEL tuning available, I would definitely have gone for it, but the way things have been going it doesn't seem very likely that this will happen. You won't be able to uncork the full potential of an NA VQ37 unless someone can crack the VVEL and do the legwork on cams/shims etc. With the TT/supercharged route it seems easy to just up the boost and be done with it. If your boost isn't substantial you can always have a reliable platform. NA power is always harder and cheaper to obtain the same HP numbers with.

08-18-2010, 03:21 AM	#28 (permalink)
Jamaica A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: SoCal Posts: 15,362 Drives: Under boost Rep Power: 73	Be patient my friend. Two companies are coming up with supercharger kits by the end of the year. Two TT kits are also coming out by January. Its still a new car. This is why I am waiting. I am in the same shows your are in. I honestly believe supercharger is that best way to go for a streetable car and a daily driver. Planning on going with LTH and supercharger just waiting on production.

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