What is the best synthetic oil?

autopc25 · 07-23-2010, 10:29 AM

It looks like Nissan Ester Oil is part or full synthetic also. I plan on using it.

Ask Mobil 1 Archive - Nissan

NIZMOZ · 07-23-2010, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red370

RP does just fine in mine. Been running it for 18,000 miles so far and 60K+ in my last car. Here is a good test, RP is one of the best.

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf

Really? You had UOA's done of "your" oil? Because MANY and I mean MANY people have and they have proven on other forums RP is not that good and NOT recommended.

Just because you use it and you don't see any issues doesn't mean it isn't causing higher wear over time. You won't know that without having the tests done. And RP is far from being the best, it's the best at being the worst.

GZ3 · 07-23-2010, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIZMOZ

Really? You had UOA's done of "your" oil? Because MANY and I mean MANY people have and they have proven on other forums RP is not that good and NOT recommended.

Just because you use it and you don't see any issues doesn't mean it isn't causing higher wear over time. You won't know that without having the tests done. And RP is far from being the best, it's the best at being the worst.

I know you used to use PP faithfully, did you ever try ultra? And would you pick 300v or ultra in your experince, thanks

Jordo! · 07-23-2010, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red370

someone show me definitive evidence that RP does more harm than good, because i've researched all over the place and found nothing but heresay, Jordo seems to know a bit, whats your take?

Honestly, I'm just not disregarding empirical data (reported in the oil nerd's thread) when it's available and relevant.

Independently gatherd and averaged UOA wear data from diferent samples for a highly similar engine is relevant whereas gear lubricity tests (like RP and I think Amsoil are known to report) are not.

As to whether any of that data should be taken into account at all comes down to the degree of typical variablity in engine wear in the population.

My feeling (which may be wrong) is that short of balls-to-the wall track only driving, the mean wear data from other DD's for a given oil in a given motor shouldn't vary substantially from that of other DD's for that oil and engine.

In other words, yes driving habits may vary, but the motor itself shouldn't break down significantly differently from driver to driver provided they are operating the vehicle within its design tolerances, especially modern engines that are built quite a bit better allowing for tighter tolerances.

The only people who regularly push that envelop are track-only drivers, who may even tear down the whole engine afterwards. That said, if the oil is doing it's job, wear should be minimal, and parts shouldn't fail prematurally, even then. When they do, it's because the design tolareances were exceeded rather than skirted.

Someone with a strong background in automotive engineering may disagree with this view in which case I will defer to their wisdom.

That said, if the end result is to conclude, "well any oil will do the job, and any syntehtic should be fine or better", then that means, at worst, you won't make a flat-out wrong decision taking the availabe wear data into account.

In other words, the data may be inconclusive, but they point to a few specific oils, all of which should work just fine, and if the data are correct, may even work a bit better. Inconclusive data should not be dismissed; in any science, there is always some error and variablity. That's just the way it is. However, disregarding relevant empirical data entirely, to me, is just foolish.

WarmAndSCSI · 07-23-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Honestly, I'm just not disregarding empirical data (reported in the oil nerd's thread) when it's available and relevant.

Independently gatherd and averaged UOA wear data from diferent samples for a highly similar engine is relevant whereas gear lubricity tests (like RP and I think Amsoil are known to report) are not.

As to whether any of that data should be taken into account at all comes down to the degree of typical variablity in engine wear in the population.

My feeling (which may be wrong) is that short of balls-to-the wall track only driving, the mean wear data from other DD's for a given oil in a given motor shouldn't vary substantially from that of other DD's for that oil and engine.

In other words, yes driving habits may vary, but the motor itself shouldn't break down significantly differently from driver to driver provided they are operating the vehicle within its design tolerances, especially modern engines that are built quite a bit better allowing for tighter tolerances.

The only people who regularly push that envelop are track-only drivers, who may even tear down the whole engine afterwards. That said, if the oil is doing it's job, wear should be minimal, and parts shouldn't fail prematurally, even then. When they do, it's because the design tolareances were exceeded rather than skirted.

Someone with a strong background in automotive engineering may disagree with this view in which case I will defer to their wisdom.

That said, if the end result is to conclude, "well any oil will do the job, and any syntehtic should be fine or better", then that means, at worst, you won't make a flat-out wrong decision taking the availabe wear data into account.

In other words, the data may be inconclusive, but they point to a few specific oils, all of which should work just fine, and if the data are correct, may even work a bit better. Inconclusive data should not be dismissed; in any science, there is always some error and variablity. That's just the way it is. However, disregarding relevant empirical data entirely, to me, is just foolish.

Actually engine wear is directly proportionate to engine load and RPM, so you'll find that UOA results vary a lot among the same exact car model. Unless everybody drives on the same routes, terrain, in the same climate, and with the same exact patterns and habits, then it's almost meaningless to compare UOA results apples-to-apples. That said, there are meaningful trends you can find among large numbers of UOA results...

When people start testing oils on our exact engine on an engine dyno with precise simulated load, I'll start paying attention to individual reports of empirical wear data. Until then, I'll stick with a proven synthetic oil which is first and foremost good on paper. The certifications tagged on quality synthetic oils are not just arbitrary - if you understand the parameters of each certification label, you can easily discern how "good" an oil is on paper. This certainly is a lot more scientific than using UOA results from a whole gamut of different operating conditions.

Somebody mentioned Pennzoil Ultra, which is certainly a good oil, and that it is Ferrari factory fill. This is not accurate - it's just the only American-made oil endorsed by Ferrari. i.e. it's the only American-made oil that has a particular formulation (5W-40 European car formula in this case) which meets Ferrari's oil specifications. Just like how only Mobil 1 0W-40 meets BMW's Long-Life oil specification. This doesn't necessarily mean it is factory fill from BMW...

The Pennzoil Ultra grade for our cars (5W-30, non European) actually has a fairly low HTHS rating of 3.1; which is lower than even Pennzoil Platinum. It's honestly not a very good high-performance oil. I would suspect it does clean very well, though, since that is what it's marketed to do best. But remember, Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30 does NOT meet Ferrari's specifications - it is not good enough to use in one of their engines, whereas 5W-40 European is. And it's not just the different base weight or weight split, it's the fact that the formulations are probably entirely different.

I've long been a proponent of Mobil 1 0W-40 since it is a very good TRUE synthetic oil (no Group III base stock is used in it). It has a HTHS rating of at least 3.5 and even though there are some reports of it quickly shearing to a 30-weight oil, it has proven to protect my own built engines very well. I've noticed hardly any difference in bearing wear when comparing M1 0W-40 to Red Line.

Currently, my pick for the 370Z is Castrol Syntec 0W-30 European car formula (made in Germany, AKA German Castrol). This is a true Group IV oil with an HTHS rating of 3.6 - it is very impressive on paper and has proven to protect very well over a broad range of UOA results. I only trust large, consistent trends in UOA results over multiple kinds of engines... that and the fact that an entire oil enthusiast community holds it in very high regard.

NIZMOZ · 07-23-2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GZ3

I know you used to use PP faithfully, did you ever try ultra? And would you pick 300v or ultra in your experince, thanks

Haven't tried Ultra yet. Mainly because it's like $8 more for the 5 quart jug from walmart vs PP which I think does just fine.

NIZMOZ · 07-23-2010, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarmAndSCSI

Actually engine wear is directly proportionate to engine load and RPM, so you'll find that UOA results vary a lot among the same exact car model. Unless everybody drives on the same routes, terrain, in the same climate, and with the same exact patterns and habits, then it's almost meaningless to compare UOA results apples-to-apples. That said, there are meaningful trends you can find among large numbers of UOA results...

When people start testing oils on our exact engine on an engine dyno with precise simulated load, I'll start paying attention to individual reports of empirical wear data. Until then, I'll stick with a proven synthetic oil which is first and foremost good on paper. The certifications tagged on quality synthetic oils are not just arbitrary - if you understand the parameters of each certification label, you can easily discern how "good" an oil is on paper. This certainly is a lot more scientific than using UOA results from a whole gamut of different operating conditions.

Somebody mentioned Pennzoil Ultra, which is certainly a good oil, and that it is Ferrari factory fill. This is not accurate - it's just the only American-made oil endorsed by Ferrari. i.e. it's the only American-made oil that has a particular formulation (5W-40 European car formula in this case) which meets Ferrari's oil specifications. Just like how only Mobil 1 0W-40 meets BMW's Long-Life oil specification. This doesn't necessarily mean it is factory fill from BMW...

The Pennzoil Ultra grade for our cars (5W-30, non European) actually has a fairly low HTHS rating of 3.1; which is lower than even Pennzoil Platinum. It's honestly not a very good high-performance oil. I would suspect it does clean very well, though, since that is what it's marketed to do best. But remember, Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30 does NOT meet Ferrari's specifications - it is not good enough to use in one of their engines, whereas 5W-40 European is. And it's not just the different base weight or weight split, it's the fact that the formulations are probably entirely different.

I've long been a proponent of Mobil 1 0W-40 since it is a very good TRUE synthetic oil (no Group III base stock is used in it). It has a HTHS rating of at least 3.5 and even though there are some reports of it quickly shearing to a 30-weight oil, it has proven to protect my own built engines very well. I've noticed hardly any difference in bearing wear when comparing M1 0W-40 to Red Line.

Currently, my pick for the 370Z is Castrol Syntec 0W-30 European car formula (made in Germany, AKA German Castrol). This is a true Group IV oil with an HTHS rating of 3.6 - it is very impressive on paper and has proven to protect very well over a broad range of UOA results. I only trust large, consistent trends in UOA results over multiple kinds of engines... that and the fact that an entire oil enthusiast community holds it in very high regard.

Hmmm..Mobil 1 has many Group 3 base stocks in it. Where did you hear it doesn't? It is talked about a lot too on BITOG.

Jordo! · 07-23-2010, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarmAndSCSI

Actually engine wear is directly proportionate to engine load and RPM, so you'll find that UOA results vary a lot among the same exact car model. Unless everybody drives on the same routes, terrain, in the same climate, and with the same exact patterns and habits, then it's almost meaningless to compare UOA results apples-to-apples. That said, there are meaningful trends you can find among large numbers of UOA results...

When people start testing oils on our exact engine on an engine dyno with precise simulated load, I'll start paying attention to individual reports of empirical wear data. Until then, I'll stick with a proven synthetic oil which is first and foremost good on paper. The certifications tagged on quality synthetic oils are not just arbitrary - if you understand the parameters of each certification label, you can easily discern how "good" an oil is on paper. This certainly is a lot more scientific than using UOA results from a whole gamut of different operating conditions.

Somebody mentioned Pennzoil Ultra, which is certainly a good oil, and that it is Ferrari factory fill. This is not accurate - it's just the only American-made oil endorsed by Ferrari. i.e. it's the only American-made oil that has a particular formulation (5W-40 European car formula in this case) which meets Ferrari's oil specifications. Just like how only Mobil 1 0W-40 meets BMW's Long-Life oil specification. This doesn't necessarily mean it is factory fill from BMW...

The Pennzoil Ultra grade for our cars (5W-30, non European) actually has a fairly low HTHS rating of 3.1; which is lower than even Pennzoil Platinum. It's honestly not a very good high-performance oil. I would suspect it does clean very well, though, since that is what it's marketed to do best. But remember, Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30 does NOT meet Ferrari's specifications - it is not good enough to use in one of their engines, whereas 5W-40 European is. And it's not just the different base weight or weight split, it's the fact that the formulations are probably entirely different.

I've long been a proponent of Mobil 1 0W-40 since it is a very good TRUE synthetic oil (no Group III base stock is used in it). It has a HTHS rating of at least 3.5 and even though there are some reports of it quickly shearing to a 30-weight oil, it has proven to protect my own built engines very well. I've noticed hardly any difference in bearing wear when comparing M1 0W-40 to Red Line.

Currently, my pick for the 370Z is Castrol Syntec 0W-30 European car formula (made in Germany, AKA German Castrol). This is a true Group IV oil with an HTHS rating of 3.6 - it is very impressive on paper and has proven to protect very well over a broad range of UOA results. I only trust large, consistent trends in UOA results over multiple kinds of engines... that and the fact that an entire oil enthusiast community holds it in very high regard.

How much is a lot? Would the mean wear still not be meaningful? But, even if so, for each given oil, there were as few as 1 sample and no more than 6 samples, so your point is very well taken...

Interestingly enough, some of the better performing oils from the averaged wear data in the oil nerd's thread included Castrol syntec (in both 0W30 and 5w30), Penzoil Platinum (not ultra -- can't recall if that was even tested), and Quaker Q state.

You gave two of those the nod, what are your thoughts on the Quaker state oil?

Oh, and where can you get the German Castrol?

WarmAndSCSI · 07-23-2010, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

How much is a lot? Would the mean wear still not be meaningful? But, even if so, for each given oil, there were as few as 1 sample and no more than 6 samples, so your point is very well taken...

Interestingly enough, some of the better performing oils from the averaged wear data in the oil nerd's thread included Castrol syntec (in both 0W30 and 5w30), Penzoil Platinum (not ultra -- can't recall if that was even tested), and Quaker Q state.

You gave two of those the nod, what are your thoughts on the Quaker state oil?

Oh, and where can you get the German Castrol?

Mean wear is definitely useful; but most people tend to focus on the outliers (results from cars that are beat the hell out of, cars that are babied beyond all reason), which is just illogical.

Castrol Syntec is excellent stuff - 0W-30 is unbeatable for the price (~$7/qt). Pennzoil Platinum is a favorite of many and its real-world performance and specs on paper back it up - it's as good as Mobil 1 but generally cheaper.

Pennzoil and Quaker State are basically made from the same stock now since Shell owns them both. Shell Rotella, Pennzoil, Quaker State - all good synthetics, all made by Shell's SOPUS group.

I've never used Pennzoil Platinum, and never paid attention to when I used Quaker State Q or Horsepower of whatever the hell it was/is called.

You can pick up German Castrol at Auto Zone. It's been separate from the other Castrol oil every place I've been, and they usually have 5-10 quarts in stock. Make sure it says European Formula on the front and Made in Germany, only for sale in the Americas on the back. There are some unknown batches of US-made 0W-30 (circa 2002) still floating around, and those are to be avoided since they may very well be Group III-based and heavily packed with friction modifiers (much like some other cheaper 0W oils).

Mobil 1 0W-40 is also tip-top oil and can be used with our engines since it's essentially the same viscosity at every single temperature as Castrol Syntec 0W-30 is. Castrol 0W-30 is a "thick" 30 wt whereas Mobil 1 0W-40 is a "thin" 40 wt. They're roughly equals.

I'm digging German Castrol on the Z so far - dropped oil temperature 5-10 degrees from the stock average cruising temperature. Idle noise is the same as well, if not quieter.

Jordo! · 07-23-2010, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarmAndSCSI

Mean wear is definitely useful; but most people tend to focus on the outliers (results from cars that are beat the hell out of, cars that are babied beyond all reason), which is just illogical.

Castrol Syntec is excellent stuff - 0W-30 is unbeatable for the price (~$7/qt). Pennzoil Platinum is a favorite of many and its real-world performance and specs on paper back it up - it's as good as Mobil 1 but generally cheaper.

Pennzoil and Quaker State are basically made from the same stock now since Shell owns them both. Shell Rotella, Pennzoil, Quaker State - all good synthetics, all made by Shell's SOPUS group.

I've never used Pennzoil Platinum, and never paid attention to when I used Quaker State Q or Horsepower of whatever the hell it was/is called.

You can pick up German Castrol at Auto Zone. It's been separate from the other Castrol oil every place I've been, and they usually have 5-10 quarts in stock. Make sure it says European Formula on the front and Made in Germany, only for sale in the Americas on the back. There are some unknown batches of US-made 0W-30 (circa 2002) still floating around, and those are to be avoided since they may very well be Group III-based and heavily packed with friction modifiers (much like some other cheaper 0W oils).

Mobil 1 0W-40 is also tip-top oil and can be used with our engines since it's essentially the same viscosity at every single temperature as Castrol Syntec 0W-30 is. Castrol 0W-30 is a "thick" 30 wt whereas Mobil 1 0W-40 is a "thin" 40 wt. They're roughly equals.

I'm digging German Castrol on the Z so far - dropped oil temperature 5-10 degrees from the stock average cruising temperature. Idle noise is the same as well, if not quieter.

I think we're on the same page here then

Thanks for the German Castrol (and PP) info -- I'll try and track ze German stuff down for the next oil change

TROOPER · 07-25-2010, 09:32 AM

OMG, there's like a million oil threads.. why isn't there a sticky..!!

And to be honest there does not seem to be a single thread that can agree on the choice of ester oil vs synthetic oil.

My car is due it's first oil change, but with SO many debates on the pros and cons, and ester vs synthetic I have no idea what to do.

Personally I've been a big fan of Royal Purple, but I'm not sure if the recommended is Ester.

Now I now it's "recommended", but that doesn't mean it's "required".
And I don't want to just fall into a Nissan sales gimmick, or dealership bullsh*t

And people saying they have had no issues with synthetic after 10 or 15k miles, is not really evidence if you know what I mean.
Tell me you've run your car for 100k+ miles on synthetic, and I'll be a believer

It's confusing to hear I have to use ester to break-in the engine, then switch to synthetic.
Or once I switch to synthetic, I can't go back to ester oil.

So what's the true story here guys, I'm looking for genuine advice, or hard facts OK.

WarmAndSCSI · 07-25-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TROOPER

OMG, there's like a million oil threads.. why isn't there a sticky..!!

And to be honest there does not seem to be a single thread that can agree on the choice of ester oil vs synthetic oil.

My car is due it's first oil change, but with SO many debates on the pros and cons, and ester vs synthetic I have no idea what to do.

Personally I've been a big fan of Royal Purple, but I'm not sure if the recommended is Ester.

Now I now it's "recommended", but that doesn't mean it's "required".
And I don't want to just fall into a Nissan sales gimmick, or dealership bullsh*t

And people saying they have had no issues with synthetic after 10 or 15k miles, is not really evidence if you know what I mean.
Tell me you've run your car for 100k+ miles on synthetic, and I'll be a believer

It's confusing to hear I have to use ester to break-in the engine, then switch to synthetic.
Or once I switch to synthetic, I can't go back to ester oil.

So what's the true story here guys, I'm looking for genuine advice, or hard facts OK.

Ester oil is synthetic oil, labeled as Group V oil. Nissan's Ester Oil just contains an ester-based additive, not necessarily any Group V polyol esters (POE) or diesters, and definitely not based on Group V oil according to their patent request on the oil.

As far as break-in is concerned, you can actually perform a break-in on a modern OEM engine on full synthetic oil. Even Mobil 1 confirms this, noting that many high-end engines come with Mobil 1 as factory fill oil. It doesn't hurt to stay on conventional for a couple hundred or thousand miles, mainly for the same reasons you break in a rebuilt or race engine on conventional, but it's not necessary. I would be wary of any Group V-based oils early on - stick to Group III and IV synthetics as these are confirmed to work as factory-fill oils.

TROOPER · 07-25-2010, 12:41 PM

Isn't Ester oil actual a blend and not full synthetic, and the same with Mobil 1 since you mentioned it..!!

So since I've just turned 2000 miles on my car, should I go for a FULL synthetic oil?

WarmAndSCSI · 07-25-2010, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TROOPER

Isn't Ester oil actual a blend and not full synthetic, and the same with Mobil 1 since you mentioned it..!!

So since I've just turned 2000 miles on my car, should I go for a FULL synthetic oil?

Yes, kind of what I covered above.

It doesn't matter for Mobil 1; for all intents and purposes Group III-based oils perform identically to Group IV oils. In fact, many weights of Mobil 1 contain a large percentage of Group IV oil, making them true synthetics. 5W-30, however, contains mostly hydrocracked dinosaur oil, so it is not a "true" synthetic and would be considered a synthetic blend in any country but the US.

If you're not consuming any significant amount of oil (i.e. you haven't consumed more than half a quart over those 2000 miles), you're safe to switch to a synthetic. Otherwise, wait it out until oil consumption ceases.

Jordo! · 07-25-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarmAndSCSI

If you're not consuming any significant amount of oil (i.e. you haven't consumed more than half a quart over those 2000 miles), you're safe to switch to a synthetic. Otherwise, wait it out until oil consumption ceases.

That's an interesting idea -- I hadn't thought of that as an indicator of a completed break-in, but it makes sense.

I consumed pretty much exactly 1/2 a qt of oil during the first 3.75 K, assuming I don't see any oil consumption over the next 3.75, I should go to synthetic on my second oil change -- otherwise wait longer?

07-25-2010, 09:32 AM	#56 (permalink)
TROOPER A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 1,297 Drives: Your Tax Dollars Rep Power: 17	OMG, there's like a million oil threads.. why isn't there a sticky..!! And to be honest there does not seem to be a single thread that can agree on the choice of ester oil vs synthetic oil. My car is due it's first oil change, but with SO many debates on the pros and cons, and ester vs synthetic I have no idea what to do. Personally I've been a big fan of Royal Purple, but I'm not sure if the recommended is Ester. Now I now it's "recommended", but that doesn't mean it's "required". And I don't want to just fall into a Nissan sales gimmick, or dealership bullsht And people saying they have had no issues with synthetic after 10 or 15k miles, is not really evidence if you know what I mean. Tell me you've run your car for 100k+ miles on synthetic, and I'll be a believer It's confusing to hear I have to use ester to break-in the engine, then switch to synthetic. Or once I switch to synthetic, I can't go back to ester oil. So what's the true story here guys, I'm looking for genuine advice, or hard facts OK. __________________ Darren* "Guv Motors Passion Wagon"

07-25-2010, 12:41 PM	#58 (permalink)
TROOPER A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 1,297 Drives: Your Tax Dollars Rep Power: 17	Isn't Ester oil actual a blend and not full synthetic, and the same with Mobil 1 since you mentioned it..!! So since I've just turned 2000 miles on my car, should I go for a FULL synthetic oil? __________________ Darren "Guv Motors Passion Wagon"

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07-23-2010, 10:29 AM	#46 (permalink)
autopc25 Base Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: 60610 Posts: 66 Drives: 2008 C6 Rep Power: 15	It looks like Nissan Ester Oil is part or full synthetic also. I plan on using it. Ask Mobil 1 Archive - Nissan