Can you get to 400 without turbo or super-charger

RCZ · 03-16-2009, 11:14 PM

JoeyD, just get used to assuming HP = WHP. BHP means nothing.

jyhighsky · 03-16-2009, 11:54 PM

TURBO FTW!!! Superchargers are great choices too. But Turbo although much more pricey, gives you the ultimate satisfaction for top end and a way to get the power and i believe a wider variety of performance.

welderz · 03-17-2009, 01:07 AM

turbo>centrifugal>roots

RCZ · 03-17-2009, 12:17 PM

all depends on what you want and which supercharger you are getting

black09Z · 04-01-2009, 05:44 PM

Boost is best!

370zmobbber · 04-01-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

I'm trying to get as much HP N/A as well. I would like to stay away from FI this time around just like Q_USAF. I don't know if it is for the same reasons, but at least for me it comes down to feel, power delivery and convenience. I love turbo cars, but the feeling of urgency and wanting to rev from a naturally aspirated engine is also very rewarding. The other thing is that there are a lot of "bugs" that always have to be worked out with turbo cars. They are a lot more finicky and more moving parts means more can go wrong.

Not to mention it is NOT going to be cheaper...you can't just snap on a turbo and call it a day. Injectors, fuel delivery, exhaust system, intakes, turbos, wastegates, labor, dyno tuning, probably internals, gauges, BOV's, intercooler, etc. That's also assuming that everything is going to go well the first time you install everything, but you should figure to tack on another $1000 for unexpected bs. It adds up way faster than you think. Then you begin to iron out the bugs. Engine overheating, melted vacuum lines here, engine has a hiccup around 3400RPM there, then you've changed so many things that you can't figure out why the ecu is cutting fuel at 4500RPM, and the damn wastegates just aren't opening because someone hooked them vac lines upside down..but you didnt figure that out till after your first dyno run which your car boosted to 37psi and almost blew up cause the wastegate never opened. Now you're so deep that you don't even want to drive the car because it might blow up.

Now back to the topic...

I honestly don't think we are going to be able to hit 400 without making the car unstreetable. If I can get 350RWHP out of this car in NA form, I will have reached my goals. The problem is that we don't really know what power we are making because all dynos read differently. Getting 400hp doesn't mean anything these days. I think we have to start talking in percentages now.

For example... lets borrow Stillen's baseline run dyno here with their exhaust.

They got a 6.5% increase over stock. To make "300WHP" on their dyno they need a 9% gain. To make "400whp" they need 45.4% gain.

We should really start measuring power gains in percentage over baseline run...there is a limited number of dynos so I think it might be helpful if I start a thread for baseline pulls for each type. What do you guys think? Based on those baseline runs we can make a table of how each dyno compares to the other. When we have a "multiplier" table for each dyno, then we can set 1 designated dyno as the "overall benchmark dyno" that everyone compares to. That is the only way to have numbers that mean anything...if everyone is on the same "page".

I can start a chart and then eventually get someone with programming skills to make us a nice little calculator. I understand there are different settings that can be used on each dyno that will affect the readings, however this is the closest thing we can get.

Anyone else would like this?

definately

KingDavid · 05-19-2009, 09:25 PM

Wow, haven't been on in a while. Anyway;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phimosis

Sorry the image quality is low. I snapped this from my iPhone.

Black line: Stock, but with rear muffler section removed.

Red line: Stillen G3 intakes, Stillen headers, Stillen Cats, Stillen exhaust.

Blue line: Stillen parts + Technosquare ECU reflash + dyno time.

In summary: $3,200 in Stillen parts gave a 26 hp increase over stock to bring it up to 328 compared to the original 302.

$700 for ECU reflash and dyno time ($500 for reflash only) gave an extra 15 whp for a total of 343 whp.

In total, it was nearly $5,000 including installation of the parts to gain 40 whp over stock. The throttle response in now extremely precise. The sound is wonderful, the over-rev to 8100 rpm is phenominal. The "Buzzy" engine vibrations that car magazines have been talking about are no worse above 7500 rpm. If anything, it smooths out a little.

One last thought: Lets pretend I gained 2 hp from removing the stock rear exhaust section. This car would have made 300 hp in this dyno. If the stock engine was 332 crank hp and it made 300 hp on this dyno, that's a conversion factor of 1.1066 for frictional loss (332/300). After mods, this car is making 343 hp on this dyno, which would be roughly 380 hp at the crank (343 x 1.1066). Not bad.

-Phim

It's no 400hp, lol, but 343whp is good, no? The number is surprisingly close to the dyno I posted earlier in the thread. And this particular dyno post is on this site...

marcussoori · 06-17-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

Geeeeez. OK. So a silly tune? Can we hack this thing? (Well, I'm sure we CAN hack it. I guess the question should be HAS someone hacked it yet?)

Is this (the complexities of the VVEL system) why it's taking so long for Cobb and other companies to release ecu tunes for this car?

Crash · 06-17-2009, 09:27 PM

Hell if I know! LOL... I'm not good with tuning. I know what certain things will gain most of the time, but when it comes to tuning, especially with a motor this complex, I have no idea.

I'd assume that it's going to take some time for them to come up with real tunes for this motor because there's far more to deal with than just a standard cam/valve motor. There's probably going to be experiments going on with them for a good 2-3 years before something GOOD comes out of it. Like the LSx motors... They've been around since 97 and they're a very simple motor to tune, but they've only started coming out with good cams and tunes recently. Up until then, it was hit-n-miss. Expect that to be the same for this motor.

Phimosis · 06-18-2009, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

Hell if I know! LOL... I'm not good with tuning. I know what certain things will gain most of the time, but when it comes to tuning, especially with a motor this complex, I have no idea.

I'd assume that it's going to take some time for them to come up with real tunes for this motor because there's far more to deal with than just a standard cam/valve motor. There's probably going to be experiments going on with them for a good 2-3 years before something GOOD comes out of it. Like the LSx motors... They've been around since 97 and they're a very simple motor to tune, but they've only started coming out with good cams and tunes recently. Up until then, it was hit-n-miss. Expect that to be the same for this motor.

Using this logic, the VQ engine should already be tuned to it's prime as it came out all the way back in 1994. If you want to argue that the VQ37 is a new engine, it came out in 2008 just like the LS3 did. And the LSx motors did have good cam and tuning. Back in 2001 the 5.7 liter stock Z06 was making 405 hp and by 2003 with aftermarket cam and blower, people had these motors making 700 whp. Sure, the VVEL is more complex, but smart people can reverse engineer graphics chips with 20 million discreet circuits in a 2 year time frame. Remapping the rate of rotation vs rpm of the VVEL and making fuel maps is a piece of cake in comparison. Don't take this personally as an attack on you. I am only ranting because I'm bitter that you can ALREADY buy a Camaro from the dealer that makes 560whp (660 at the engine? 2 months after the car hit the showroom floor?) and we can't even get a Nismo Z yet that makes 15hp more than the base model.

I think there is just more R&D in the aftermarket for American cars, which is somewhat baffling because European and Japanese manufacturers sell lots of cars all over the world, where American manufacturers only have good sales in North America.

MightyBobo · 06-18-2009, 12:51 AM

Phimosis - I think you just came up with the reason why I prefer American aftermarket pieces versus foreign lol.

Dont forget the ridiculous price premium for imported stuff too.

BTW, one of GM's biggest sellers is Buick in China - they sell a **** ton of them, there.

Crash · 06-18-2009, 02:33 AM

I'm not saying it's impossible to tune a VVEL system. The LS3 is technically a new motor as there were some basic changes between the LS2 and the LS3 (besides displacement), but the VVEL system changes the VQ37 from the VQ35 enough to make it so the old tuning methods are different. Every time GM comes out with a new LSx motor (the LS9 and LSA excluded because they're force inducted) it's been exactly the same process for tuning. Reverse engineering isn't totally necessary for the VVEL system to be tuned. It just needs to be mapped (like you said) correctly based on the requested amount of power (which is how it's setup as is). The VVEL system basically changes how much lift the valves get, correct? So we're really look at cam-grinders getting their hands on this for tuning.

The only real new technology the LS motors have gotten lately is variable timing, but that's easily turned off to turn your LS motor into a performance LS motor.

MightyBobo · 06-18-2009, 07:12 AM

BTW, for what its worth - my friend who works with the MegaSquirt crew said one of the newer MS setups could handle the tuning just fine for the 370. So, in reality, there IS a tuning solution out there - someone just has to use it.

Crash - the VVEL system changes the lift on the intake valves alone, so, in reality, you can tune the VVEL system as if you were tuning a normal drive-by-wire throttle body. As someone said in an old post, the TB's on the 370 are open 100% during all normal operating conditions, and the VVEL system acts as the throttle body. So why are we over-analyzing this? Just think of the VVEL system as the throttle body itself, and we all know the tuning is directly tied to how far the TB is opened, along with the current amount of air flowing (assuming you're doing a MAF tune and not speed density...).

Cliffs: theres no reason anyone cant use a MegaSquirt tuning solution RIGHT NOW to tune their 370.

kannibul · 06-18-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

Im just guessing here since Im a bit new to the VQ world (but quite knowledgeable in the LSX SBC world)...but you'd probably need...more than likely, the best of the best bolt-ons, and some internals for this. Heads, headers-back, a DECENT intake, custom-ground cams and upgraded valvetrain to match, maybe swap your bottom end for something a bit higher in compression. Cant forget your fuel system (pump/injectors), and a tune to go with it.

The price would be quite high, more than likely.

On the other hand, going boosted the safe (and "correct", to many) way would be to swap to a nice forged bottom end, upgrade your fuel system, and get a nice intercooled turbo/supercharger kit. That'd probably last a long time, assuming its all installed correctly. Oh yeah, and beef up that tranny and potentially your rear end if you plan on launching it ever...

This kind of work is common place in the SBC world, and people can, now-a-days, fairly easily put down close to 500 to the wheels in their N/A F-bodies and C5 Vettes for minimal cost. But with these VQ motors, finding aftermarket manufacturers for a lot of the parts would probably be quite difficult, and/or prone to raping your wallet of funds lol.

Technically speaking, the engine in the 370z doesn't have a camshaft. It does have an eccentric shaft.

MightyBobo · 06-18-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Technically speaking, the engine in the 370z doesn't have a camshaft. It does have an eccentric shaft.

That post was made well before I even owned my 370 heh - I didn't even realize the VVEL system was in it, much less how it worked at the time.

None the less, you are correct

06-17-2009, 09:27 PM	#129 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 589	Hell if I know! LOL... I'm not good with tuning. I know what certain things will gain most of the time, but when it comes to tuning, especially with a motor this complex, I have no idea. I'd assume that it's going to take some time for them to come up with real tunes for this motor because there's far more to deal with than just a standard cam/valve motor. There's probably going to be experiments going on with them for a good 2-3 years before something GOOD comes out of it. Like the LSx motors... They've been around since 97 and they're a very simple motor to tune, but they've only started coming out with good cams and tunes recently. Up until then, it was hit-n-miss. Expect that to be the same for this motor. __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

06-18-2009, 12:51 AM	#131 (permalink)
MightyBobo A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,465 Drives: No cars; only bikes Rep Power: 52	Phimosis - I think you just came up with the reason why I prefer American aftermarket pieces versus foreign lol. Dont forget the ridiculous price premium for imported stuff too. BTW, one of GM's biggest sellers is Buick in China - they sell a **** ton of them, there. __________________ I don't own a car anymore.

06-18-2009, 02:33 AM	#132 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 589	I'm not saying it's impossible to tune a VVEL system. The LS3 is technically a new motor as there were some basic changes between the LS2 and the LS3 (besides displacement), but the VVEL system changes the VQ37 from the VQ35 enough to make it so the old tuning methods are different. Every time GM comes out with a new LSx motor (the LS9 and LSA excluded because they're force inducted) it's been exactly the same process for tuning. Reverse engineering isn't totally necessary for the VVEL system to be tuned. It just needs to be mapped (like you said) correctly based on the requested amount of power (which is how it's setup as is). The VVEL system basically changes how much lift the valves get, correct? So we're really look at cam-grinders getting their hands on this for tuning. The only real new technology the LS motors have gotten lately is variable timing, but that's easily turned off to turn your LS motor into a performance LS motor. __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

06-18-2009, 07:12 AM	#133 (permalink)
MightyBobo A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,465 Drives: No cars; only bikes Rep Power: 52	BTW, for what its worth - my friend who works with the MegaSquirt crew said one of the newer MS setups could handle the tuning just fine for the 370. So, in reality, there IS a tuning solution out there - someone just has to use it. Crash - the VVEL system changes the lift on the intake valves alone, so, in reality, you can tune the VVEL system as if you were tuning a normal drive-by-wire throttle body. As someone said in an old post, the TB's on the 370 are open 100% during all normal operating conditions, and the VVEL system acts as the throttle body. So why are we over-analyzing this? Just think of the VVEL system as the throttle body itself, and we all know the tuning is directly tied to how far the TB is opened, along with the current amount of air flowing (assuming you're doing a MAF tune and not speed density...). Cliffs: theres no reason anyone cant use a MegaSquirt tuning solution RIGHT NOW to tune their 370. __________________ I don't own a car anymore. Last edited by MightyBobo; 06-18-2009 at 07:16 AM.

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03-16-2009, 11:14 PM	#121 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	JoeyD, just get used to assuming HP = WHP. BHP means nothing.

03-16-2009, 11:54 PM	#122 (permalink)
jyhighsky Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: So. Cal 310 Posts: 29 Drives: Honda Rep Power: 16	TURBO FTW!!! Superchargers are great choices too. But Turbo although much more pricey, gives you the ultimate satisfaction for top end and a way to get the power and i believe a wider variety of performance.

03-17-2009, 01:07 AM	#123 (permalink)
welderz Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: PA Posts: 20 Drives: POS beater car Rep Power: 16	turbo>centrifugal>roots

03-17-2009, 12:17 PM	#124 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	all depends on what you want and which supercharger you are getting

04-01-2009, 05:44 PM	#125 (permalink)
black09Z Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: killeen tx Posts: 202 Drives: black 09 370Z 6spd Rep Power: 16	Boost is best!