Can you get to 400 without turbo or super-charger

Crash · 02-23-2009, 01:48 AM

Ah geez... I nap for an hour and see a billion things to respond to in one thread... LOL

OK, MightyBoo, I live in Los Angeles, and the muscle cars I see out here are not just garaged. There's a LOT of them out here that are being driven like they were meant to be. Trust me on that. I see races all the time. In Compton, some of the best races go down. 10, 9, and sometimes 8 second cars race down there... The street races there NEVER lose their allure... Especially when both cars are doing wheelies off the line... Yeah, people can get hurt and no cops almost never show up.

Lightweight flywheels don't add HP at all, they reduce the amount of potential HP lost through the drivetrain. However, since we're talking about N/A that won't make it to 500HP crank, a lightweight fly wheel is NOT going to be a weak point in the system. LSx motors make 500HP VERY easily so yes, in an LSx application, there's no need to use a lightweight flywheel. Also, keep in mind that an LSx has plenty more torque (345Lbs+) and therefore can get the drivetrain spinning a lot easier. The VQ can use all the help it can get to speed up the revs.

Multiplier does depend on the motor. LSx motors LOVED mods. Little mods made big differences and every mod did help the other quite a bit. The VQ, not so much. I think that other mods to the VQ won't help each other enough until you FI the motor anyway.

JoeyD · 02-23-2009, 10:11 AM

I think we need to get away from the FI vs NA discusion a bit and focus more on the thread topic. I could go on all day about why I won't FI another NA car. Upgrading FI on an OEM FI car is one thing but on a stock NA it's a whole different animal.

I would like to see 350RWHP (that's over 400 at the crank) naturally aspirated out a 370. The cosworth build did involve a stroker kit to 3.7 I believe. The stock head has great potential. So here is what I think will do it:

-CAI
-Header Back Exhaust (although when looking a the stock headers I think they are going to be tough to beat)
-Injectors
-Ingnition (HKS DLI)
-Underdrive Pulleys ( I hate using these but NA it should be ok)
-Aggresive tune taking full advantage of VVEL

On this car 350RWHP will be incredible to drive. Match that with the longevity you are sure to have without boost and you have a streetable, reliable, monster.

RCZ · 02-23-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyD

On this car 350RWHP will be incredible to drive. Match that with the longevity you are sure to have without boost and you have a streetable, reliable, monster.

Amen. I literally couldn't have said that better or agree with it more.

G&M Performance · 02-23-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

I'm trying to get as much HP N/A as well. I would like to stay away from FI this time around just like Q_USAF. I don't know if it is for the same reasons, but at least for me it comes down to feel, power delivery and convenience. I love turbo cars, but the feeling of urgency and wanting to rev from a naturally aspirated engine is also very rewarding. The other thing is that there are a lot of "bugs" that always have to be worked out with turbo cars. They are a lot more finicky and more moving parts means more can go wrong.

Not to mention it is NOT going to be cheaper...you can't just snap on a turbo and call it a day. Injectors, fuel delivery, exhaust system, intakes, turbos, wastegates, labor, dyno tuning, probably internals, gauges, BOV's, intercooler, etc. That's also assuming that everything is going to go well the first time you install everything, but you should figure to tack on another $1000 for unexpected bs. It adds up way faster than you think. Then you begin to iron out the bugs. Engine overheating, melted vacuum lines here, engine has a hiccup around 3400RPM there, then you've changed so many things that you can't figure out why the ecu is cutting fuel at 4500RPM, and the damn wastegates just aren't opening because someone hooked them vac lines upside down..but you didnt figure that out till after your first dyno run which your car boosted to 37psi and almost blew up cause the wastegate never opened. Now you're so deep that you don't even want to drive the car because it might blow up.

Now back to the topic...

I honestly don't think we are going to be able to hit 400 without making the car unstreetable. If I can get 350RWHP out of this car in NA form, I will have reached my goals. The problem is that we don't really know what power we are making because all dynos read differently. Getting 400hp doesn't mean anything these days. I think we have to start talking in percentages now.

For example... lets borrow Stillen's baseline run dyno here with their exhaust.

They got a 6.5% increase over stock. To make "300WHP" on their dyno they need a 9% gain. To make "400whp" they need 45.4% gain.

We should really start measuring power gains in percentage over baseline run...there is a limited number of dynos so I think it might be helpful if I start a thread for baseline pulls for each type. What do you guys think? Based on those baseline runs we can make a table of how each dyno compares to the other. When we have a "multiplier" table for each dyno, then we can set 1 designated dyno as the "overall benchmark dyno" that everyone compares to. That is the only way to have numbers that mean anything...if everyone is on the same "page".

I can start a chart and then eventually get someone with programming skills to make us a nice little calculator. I understand there are different settings that can be used on each dyno that will affect the readings, however this is the closest thing we can get.

Anyone else would like this?

Actually, with the experience I've had building cars for 14 years, it is just as easy as snapping on a turbo as long as you have all of the supporting modifications. I don't really have the time to go into detail about all of the costs associated with going N/A, but it is not cheap. If done right, you can piece together, fab, and install a turbo system for cheaper than a full N/A setup. Tuning knowledge is extremely important though, so turbocharging a factory N/A car is not for rookies.

Then again, as long as there is a reputable tuning shop in your area, you should be golden.

The way I see it is if you're going to break your warranty, you might as well do it for more power.

Oh and as far as longevity goes, low boost is your best friend. At 5-6 psi, your car will last longer than you will own it.

Anyway, I'm done. It's all in what you want to do and there is no right or wrong. Just opinions. I just hate how some of you folks blast people about things and try to make them feel like a fool. Hell, it is almost as bad as my350z at times.

G&M Performance · 02-23-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

Seriously? You dont think the vast majority of cars on the road are stock and/or completely riced out w/ no mods? Not to mention all the grocery getters, vans, daily drivers and whatnot out there.

Being the fastest from stoplight to stoplight means **** anymore, really, except the high possibility of losing your license and hurting someone. Straight line racing is boring, too. Street racing is and has lost so much allure now that states are cracking down on it. Go do some legal Auto-X or road racing.

I dont disagree, 400ish HP on the 370 would probably be pretty optimal for a VERY fast track car. Anywhere north of that though, I think you're now just going into the realm of wanting to be a stupid powerful street car with no purpose other than to brag. Who cares about the ridiculously powerful local cars are, do they even track them? Or do they just street race? How often do you go to these car shows and see these blown classic muscle cars that never see anything other than a garage when they aren't at the show?

Its just not worth it for me, career and insurance wise, to get caught racing on the street. I'll stick to legal methods now, thanks.

Have you ever thought that maybe those people enjoy building motors just for fun? Not everybody that has a powerful car is a meat head that pounds the public pavement for the hell of it. Remember, there are idiots everywhere you go in ALL horsepower classes and ALL kinds of vehicles. Quit your whining and go back to your Enfamil formula.

JoeyD · 02-23-2009, 03:11 PM

Ninjaman...I too have some substantial experience building, and destroying cars over the last 8 years. And one factor that remains constant is "boost fever". When it is so easy to increase power it's almost impossible to resist the urge to do so. This, ultimately, is what results in blown motors. More so than generic mechanical failure at least. Have you met a single motor-head that could resist cranking it up, if even only one time? I haven't, to include myself.

You will not convince me that ANY turbo setup will last longer or be as maintenance free on a 370 than the simple mods I listed above. I don't care how well the work is done, or how well the motor is tuned, all things being equal the NA setup lasts longer. Sure I would love to have a 370ZTT, but I would only consider this if I had something else to drive when it does break.

MightyBobo · 02-23-2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninjaman370z

Have you ever thought that maybe those people enjoy building motors just for fun? Not everybody that has a powerful car is a meat head that pounds the public pavement for the hell of it. Remember, there are idiots everywhere you go in ALL horsepower classes and ALL kinds of vehicles. Quit your whining and go back to your Enfamil formula.

Oh geeze, someone's upset over a lot of nothing. For the record Im 25. And secondly, of course there's idiots everywhere - where did I say specifically that 370Z owners were the plague?

You're reading into what I was saying far too much - the short point is that, from my side of the fence, I plan on modding with the purpose to race the car at a track. If you want to mod it to have some ridiculous amount of horsepower, have at it I guess. But I see that on par with getting chrome 24's on a Hummer - a vehicle that'll never do what its designed to do.

Sounds like you did a little street racing with your SRT-4 and I hit a nerve, to be perfectly honest. I never said I was innocent, myself. But after a couple eye-opening incidents, never again.

frost · 02-23-2009, 03:23 PM

Drama!

Skaterbasist · 02-23-2009, 03:51 PM

For those who have been around the VQ community, my guess will be no. And if it ever was possible, get ready to spend over 10k in a full NA engine build. Not worth it...

MightyBobo · 02-23-2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frost

Drama!

Its what makes the world go 'round!

To be quite honest, I think people just take things to harshly on a message board sometimes. Im very opinionated and not particularly shy about sharing it. Others who don't like my opinion, but are just as opinionated themselves, will naturally clash.

BoBoTee · 02-23-2009, 04:32 PM

Ah, so many opinions here to last a lifetime. Go turbo Go! N/A 2 slow...just thought I would put that in just because it kind of ryhmes.

DIGItonium · 02-23-2009, 05:59 PM

Ditch the 370Z and get the 380RS-C.

VQ38HR with 395 HP and 310 lb-ft torque, and it uses Motec engine management. $250k... not street legal, of course.

MightyBobo · 02-23-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIGItonium

not street legal, of course.

Details details...

DIGItonium · 02-23-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

Details details...

You know how we have the '08 NISMO Z with the nice suspension upgrades and funky body kit? In Japan, it's the 380RS. It is everything out NISMO Z is, but there's a 3.8L HR engine in it pushing 350 PS. There is a competition version that is gutted out with a race built version of the 3.8L HR tuned and controlled with Motec gear.

Google... and drool.

JoeyD · 02-23-2009, 07:06 PM

Um it's called the 380RS but it still has the 3.5L VQ35HR. Says so in the first video on google and also on the Nissan spec sheet.

02-23-2009, 01:48 AM	#31 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 589	Ah geez... I nap for an hour and see a billion things to respond to in one thread... LOL OK, MightyBoo, I live in Los Angeles, and the muscle cars I see out here are not just garaged. There's a LOT of them out here that are being driven like they were meant to be. Trust me on that. I see races all the time. In Compton, some of the best races go down. 10, 9, and sometimes 8 second cars race down there... The street races there NEVER lose their allure... Especially when both cars are doing wheelies off the line... Yeah, people can get hurt and no cops almost never show up. Lightweight flywheels don't add HP at all, they reduce the amount of potential HP lost through the drivetrain. However, since we're talking about N/A that won't make it to 500HP crank, a lightweight fly wheel is NOT going to be a weak point in the system. LSx motors make 500HP VERY easily so yes, in an LSx application, there's no need to use a lightweight flywheel. Also, keep in mind that an LSx has plenty more torque (345Lbs+) and therefore can get the drivetrain spinning a lot easier. The VQ can use all the help it can get to speed up the revs. Multiplier does depend on the motor. LSx motors LOVED mods. Little mods made big differences and every mod did help the other quite a bit. The VQ, not so much. I think that other mods to the VQ won't help each other enough until you FI the motor anyway. __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

02-23-2009, 10:11 AM	#32 (permalink)
JoeyD Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 305 Drives: 09 NISMO 370Z Rep Power: 186	I think we need to get away from the FI vs NA discusion a bit and focus more on the thread topic. I could go on all day about why I won't FI another NA car. Upgrading FI on an OEM FI car is one thing but on a stock NA it's a whole different animal. I would like to see 350RWHP (that's over 400 at the crank) naturally aspirated out a 370. The cosworth build did involve a stroker kit to 3.7 I believe. The stock head has great potential. So here is what I think will do it: -CAI -Header Back Exhaust (although when looking a the stock headers I think they are going to be tough to beat) -Injectors -Ingnition (HKS DLI) -Underdrive Pulleys ( I hate using these but NA it should be ok) -Aggresive tune taking full advantage of VVEL On this car 350RWHP will be incredible to drive. Match that with the longevity you are sure to have without boost and you have a streetable, reliable, monster. __________________ When was the last time you did 230MPH in something with 4 seats?

02-23-2009, 03:11 PM	#36 (permalink)
JoeyD Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 305 Drives: 09 NISMO 370Z Rep Power: 186	Ninjaman...I too have some substantial experience building, and destroying cars over the last 8 years. And one factor that remains constant is "boost fever". When it is so easy to increase power it's almost impossible to resist the urge to do so. This, ultimately, is what results in blown motors. More so than generic mechanical failure at least. Have you met a single motor-head that could resist cranking it up, if even only one time? I haven't, to include myself. You will not convince me that ANY turbo setup will last longer or be as maintenance free on a 370 than the simple mods I listed above. I don't care how well the work is done, or how well the motor is tuned, all things being equal the NA setup lasts longer. Sure I would love to have a 370ZTT, but I would only consider this if I had something else to drive when it does break. __________________ When was the last time you did 230MPH in something with 4 seats?

02-23-2009, 05:59 PM	#42 (permalink)
DIGItonium A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Kansas Posts: 3,800 Drives: 09 Z34-TT 6MT Rep Power: 42	Ditch the 370Z and get the 380RS-C. VQ38HR with 395 HP and 310 lb-ft torque, and it uses Motec engine management. $250k... not street legal, of course. __________________

02-23-2009, 07:06 PM	#45 (permalink)
JoeyD Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 305 Drives: 09 NISMO 370Z Rep Power: 186	Um it's called the 380RS but it still has the 3.5L VQ35HR. Says so in the first video on google and also on the Nissan spec sheet. __________________ When was the last time you did 230MPH in something with 4 seats?

02-23-2009, 03:51 PM	#39 (permalink)
Skaterbasist Base Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 99 Drives: 06 G35 Coupe 6MT Rep Power: 267	For those who have been around the VQ community, my guess will be no. And if it ever was possible, get ready to spend over 10k in a full NA engine build. Not worth it...

02-23-2009, 04:32 PM	#41 (permalink)
BoBoTee Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Maryland Posts: 56 Drives: 09 Honda coupe v6 Rep Power: 247	Ah, so many opinions here to last a lifetime. Go turbo Go! N/A 2 slow...just thought I would put that in just because it kind of ryhmes.

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