Can you get to 400 without turbo or super-charger

Q_USAF

Can you get the 370 up to 400 hp or as close as possible. Without being turboed or super-charged. Please list out the parts or modifications if possible.

MightyBobo

Im just guessing here since Im a bit new to the VQ world (but quite knowledgeable in the LSX SBC world)...but you'd probably need...more than likely, the best of the best bolt-ons, and some internals for this. Heads, headers-back, a DECENT intake, custom-ground cams and upgraded valvetrain to match, maybe swap your bottom end for something a bit higher in compression. Cant forget your fuel system (pump/injectors), and a tune to go with it.

The price would be quite high, more than likely.

On the other hand, going boosted the safe (and "correct", to many) way would be to swap to a nice forged bottom end, upgrade your fuel system, and get a nice intercooled turbo/supercharger kit. That'd probably last a long time, assuming its all installed correctly. Oh yeah, and beef up that tranny and potentially your rear end if you plan on launching it ever...

This kind of work is common place in the SBC world, and people can, now-a-days, fairly easily put down close to 500 to the wheels in their N/A F-bodies and C5 Vettes for minimal cost. But with these VQ motors, finding aftermarket manufacturers for a lot of the parts would probably be quite difficult, and/or prone to raping your wallet of funds lol.

G&M Performance

Why do you want to go N/A when you can spend half of the money and get more power with boosting? I bet you have a lot of mob money...

MightyBobo

So I did a little searching around youtube, found this video. Long and short, he has longtubes w/ no emissions, their own custom exhaust/intake setup, Nismo street cam's, and everything else is still stock. Now I know its the 3.5L, but none the less - they still only squeeked out 313WHP.

YouTube - SG Motorsport Longtube Racecar Development

MightyBobo

I question "half the money", unless you're piecing together, and installing the kit yourself. Tack on another $400+ for a chassis dyno tune.

Q_USAF

Thanks, BTW would you estimate the cost to be of your suggestions...Just round about

MightyBobo

Well, I guess a good way to guestimate would be to take what it costs to do it on my Camaro and double it just about haha.

Longtubes + full exhaust - $1800-2000
Heads - god I dont even want to guess. $2000-3000 I'd say
Cams - $1000-1200 maybe?
Intake - $400-500
Valve springs - Looks like $250ish
Some nice lightweight valves would be on my mod list too, but I cant seem to find a price for them. Probably quite a bit.
Bottom Ends can vary in price - Im going to guess $1500 here or so. Factor in needing to send it out to be balanced, and installed by a professional. Another $500 or so.
Fuel System - $500 for injectors it seems, $155 for a walbro pump, plus another $400ish for a tune.



So using my medium prices, around $9000 or so to make high 300's to the wheels. Some people would shy you away from this and simply say go boosted. I say, you do all this, and all of these would support a boosted setup. Slap the turbo kit on and nothing else, retune, and shoot for the moon . Forged bottom end + boosted setup w/ a fuel system to support it? Delicious...

Crash

Forged Crank, Forged piston heads, higher compression (maybe in the 12s), BIG cams and matching heads, good intake, full exhaust with test pipes. Should be good for 400. It's harder to get lower displacement motors to higher HP without FI or Nitrous.

__________________
2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled
2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

RCZ

I'm trying to get as much HP N/A as well. I would like to stay away from FI this time around just like Q_USAF. I don't know if it is for the same reasons, but at least for me it comes down to feel, power delivery and convenience. I love turbo cars, but the feeling of urgency and wanting to rev from a naturally aspirated engine is also very rewarding. The other thing is that there are a lot of "bugs" that always have to be worked out with turbo cars. They are a lot more finicky and more moving parts means more can go wrong.

Not to mention it is NOT going to be cheaper...you can't just snap on a turbo and call it a day. Injectors, fuel delivery, exhaust system, intakes, turbos, wastegates, labor, dyno tuning, probably internals, gauges, BOV's, intercooler, etc. That's also assuming that everything is going to go well the first time you install everything, but you should figure to tack on another $1000 for unexpected bs. It adds up way faster than you think. Then you begin to iron out the bugs. Engine overheating, melted vacuum lines here, engine has a hiccup around 3400RPM there, then you've changed so many things that you can't figure out why the ecu is cutting fuel at 4500RPM, and the damn wastegates just aren't opening because someone hooked them vac lines upside down..but you didnt figure that out till after your first dyno run which your car boosted to 37psi and almost blew up cause the wastegate never opened. Now you're so deep that you don't even want to drive the car because it might blow up.

Now back to the topic...

I honestly don't think we are going to be able to hit 400 without making the car unstreetable. If I can get 350RWHP out of this car in NA form, I will have reached my goals. The problem is that we don't really know what power we are making because all dynos read differently. Getting 400hp doesn't mean anything these days. I think we have to start talking in percentages now.

For example... lets borrow Stillen's baseline run dyno here with their exhaust.



They got a 6.5% increase over stock. To make "300WHP" on their dyno they need a 9% gain. To make "400whp" they need 45.4% gain.




We should really start measuring power gains in percentage over baseline run...there is a limited number of dynos so I think it might be helpful if I start a thread for baseline pulls for each type. What do you guys think? Based on those baseline runs we can make a table of how each dyno compares to the other. When we have a "multiplier" table for each dyno, then we can set 1 designated dyno as the "overall benchmark dyno" that everyone compares to. That is the only way to have numbers that mean anything...if everyone is on the same "page".

I can start a chart and then eventually get someone with programming skills to make us a nice little calculator. I understand there are different settings that can be used on each dyno that will affect the readings, however this is the closest thing we can get.

Anyone else would like this?

Crash

^^^ Interesting. I don't totally agree with your "turbo shenanigans" description, but I do know what you mean. I DO think it'd cost about the same to make the car 400whp N/A as it would to make it 500whp through FI. BUT, that's because 400 is a HIGH number for a small displacement motor.

Also, I just thought about it, why not bore and stroke? Make the car either a 3.8 or a 3.9 (or if you're crazy, a 4.0) and THEN go for more power. Obviously the 3.8 parts are already around.

I know what you mean about having the power when you want it, but a good turbo setup doesn't have to take forever to spool. In fact, with a lightweight flywheel the turbos spool a bit quicker, and to make the 400-500whp mark, you don't need big turbos, so they'd spool even faster.

Just a thought.

__________________
2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled
2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

Q_USAF

I like your thought process...

RCZ

It of course doesn't have to be so bad of an experience, I know. I just see people thinking you can slap turbo kits and keep driving the car like nothing happened. I mean it is possible and it does happen with well designed kits, but all inclusive kits are going to run you upwards of $10,000 all said and done. Of course the potential of a turbo car is MUCH greater, there is no denying that.

I wouldn't mind a 4.0L.

You can't have your cake and eat it too though. 500whp is almost twice the stock whp. You can't run very small turbos to get that kind of power unless the compression is really high, which you wouldn't do because you would end up blowing up. So you would have to get lower compression pistons at which point the setup wouldn't make as much power with the smaller turbos and you would have to get bigger ones to do the trick. I don't know where the limits of the stock block are as far as boost is concerned. That is why we have those guys who are in a hurry to be the first to have turboed Z's to do all the experiments before we do . I would assume a pair of GT28's or 30's would do the trick for 500WHP. I would expect full boost with those on the 3.7L engine with lower compression internals @ 3700RPM. 18-21PSI. With stock compression, 500whp...12PSI @3300rpm with twin 20G's.

I'm still with Q_USAF though, I like the idea of a free revving N/A responsive engine..hope it makes power

Intake
Headers
Exhaust
Cams
Heads
Intake Mani
Flywheel
Tune

Q_USAF

These are only estimates based on a average from the various manufacturers in terms of horse-power. These bolt-on's are available now or coming soon.

1. Intake - 8 - 12
2. Exhaust - 10 - 16
3. Headers - 8 - 10
4. Race pipes - 5 -7
5. Pulley 9 - 15
6. Fly wheel & Clutch - 8 - 10
7. Cams ???
8. ECU Flash - ???

Any thoughts??

Crash

^^^ MORE actually. Keep in mind, every mod makes the other work better. CIA may help to make 8-12, but add a light weight fly wheel and flash and that CIA is pushing 15-18 on it's own.

However, 12PSI on GT28's is going to spool pretty quick. A friend of mine has dual GTK350's on his 300zx and they spool pretty fast with his light weight flywheel and 3" exhaust. His setup is designed for 600whp, but he doesn't push it that high. Usually keeping it around 450-500.

I'd love to have 500HP N/A. But I don't see it happening without a seriously silly cam set with this 3.7L.

__________________
2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled
2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

BoBoTee

There's only one cam in the VQ's head and that's the exhaust cam. The traditional intake cam is no longer available. The ecu controls the duration of the intake cam. CRAZY!!