Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 34048)

I'm trying to get as much HP N/A as well. I would like to stay away from FI this time around just like Q_USAF. I don't know if it is for the same reasons, but at least for me it comes down to feel, power delivery and convenience. I love turbo cars, but the feeling of urgency and wanting to rev from a naturally aspirated engine is also very rewarding. The other thing is that there are a lot of "bugs" that always have to be worked out with turbo cars. They are a lot more finicky and more moving parts means more can go wrong.

Not to mention it is NOT going to be cheaper...you can't just snap on a turbo and call it a day. Injectors, fuel delivery, exhaust system, intakes, turbos, wastegates, labor, dyno tuning, probably internals, gauges, BOV's, intercooler, etc. That's also assuming that everything is going to go well the first time you install everything, but you should figure to tack on another $1000 for unexpected bs. It adds up way faster than you think. Then you begin to iron out the bugs. Engine overheating, melted vacuum lines here, engine has a hiccup around 3400RPM there, then you've changed so many things that you can't figure out why the ecu is cutting fuel at 4500RPM, and the damn wastegates just aren't opening because someone hooked them vac lines upside down..but you didnt figure that out till after your first dyno run which your car boosted to 37psi and almost blew up cause the wastegate never opened. Now you're so deep that you don't even want to drive the car because it might blow up.

Now back to the topic...

I honestly don't think we are going to be able to hit 400 without making the car unstreetable. If I can get 350RWHP out of this car in NA form, I will have reached my goals. The problem is that we don't really know what power we are making because all dynos read differently. Getting 400hp doesn't mean anything these days. I think we have to start talking in percentages now.

For example... lets borrow Stillen's baseline run dyno here with their exhaust.

http://www.stillen.com/media_files/S...ust_504355.jpg

They got a 6.5% increase over stock. To make "300WHP" on their dyno they need a 9% gain. To make "400whp" they need 45.4% gain.




We should really start measuring power gains in percentage over baseline run...there is a limited number of dynos so I think it might be helpful if I start a thread for baseline pulls for each type. What do you guys think? Based on those baseline runs we can make a table of how each dyno compares to the other. When we have a "multiplier" table for each dyno, then we can set 1 designated dyno as the "overall benchmark dyno" that everyone compares to. That is the only way to have numbers that mean anything...if everyone is on the same "page".

I can start a chart and then eventually get someone with programming skills to make us a nice little calculator. I understand there are different settings that can be used on each dyno that will affect the readings, however this is the closest thing we can get.

Anyone else would like this?

Originally Posted by Phimosis (Post 73519)

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3...t/370zdyno.jpg

Sorry the image quality is low. I snapped this from my iPhone.

Black line: Stock, but with rear muffler section removed.

Red line: Stillen G3 intakes, Stillen headers, Stillen Cats, Stillen exhaust.

Blue line: Stillen parts + Technosquare ECU reflash + dyno time.

In summary: $3,200 in Stillen parts gave a 26 hp increase over stock to bring it up to 328 compared to the original 302.

$700 for ECU reflash and dyno time ($500 for reflash only) gave an extra 15 whp for a total of 343 whp.

In total, it was nearly $5,000 including installation of the parts to gain 40 whp over stock. The throttle response in now extremely precise. The sound is wonderful, the over-rev to 8100 rpm is phenominal. The "Buzzy" engine vibrations that car magazines have been talking about are no worse above 7500 rpm. If anything, it smooths out a little.

One last thought: Lets pretend I gained 2 hp from removing the stock rear exhaust section. This car would have made 300 hp in this dyno. If the stock engine was 332 crank hp and it made 300 hp on this dyno, that's a conversion factor of 1.1066 for frictional loss (332/300). After mods, this car is making 343 hp on this dyno, which would be roughly 380 hp at the crank (343 x 1.1066). Not bad.

-Phim

Originally Posted by Crash (Post 34240)

Geeeeez. OK. So a silly tune? Can we hack this thing? (Well, I'm sure we CAN hack it. I guess the question should be HAS someone hacked it yet?)

Originally Posted by Crash (Post 93534)

Hell if I know! LOL... I'm not good with tuning. I know what certain things will gain most of the time, but when it comes to tuning, especially with a motor this complex, I have no idea.

I'd assume that it's going to take some time for them to come up with real tunes for this motor because there's far more to deal with than just a standard cam/valve motor. There's probably going to be experiments going on with them for a good 2-3 years before something GOOD comes out of it. Like the LSx motors... They've been around since 97 and they're a very simple motor to tune, but they've only started coming out with good cams and tunes recently. Up until then, it was hit-n-miss. Expect that to be the same for this motor.

Originally Posted by MightyBobo (Post 33882)

Im just guessing here since Im a bit new to the VQ world (but quite knowledgeable in the LSX SBC world)...but you'd probably need...more than likely, the best of the best bolt-ons, and some internals for this. Heads, headers-back, a DECENT intake, custom-ground cams and upgraded valvetrain to match, maybe swap your bottom end for something a bit higher in compression. Cant forget your fuel system (pump/injectors), and a tune to go with it.

The price would be quite high, more than likely.

On the other hand, going boosted the safe (and "correct", to many) way would be to swap to a nice forged bottom end, upgrade your fuel system, and get a nice intercooled turbo/supercharger kit. That'd probably last a long time, assuming its all installed correctly. Oh yeah, and beef up that tranny and potentially your rear end if you plan on launching it ever...

This kind of work is common place in the SBC world, and people can, now-a-days, fairly easily put down close to 500 to the wheels in their N/A F-bodies and C5 Vettes for minimal cost. But with these VQ motors, finding aftermarket manufacturers for a lot of the parts would probably be quite difficult, and/or prone to raping your wallet of funds lol.

Originally Posted by kannibul (Post 93849)

Technically speaking, the engine in the 370z doesn't have a camshaft. It does have an eccentric shaft.

Originally Posted by Crash (Post 94784)

Pshhh... Cam shafts... Even Ferrari doesn't use 'em! LOL

Originally Posted by tolnep (Post 94871)

custom high lift cams, springs retainers to handle..

Originally Posted by CBRich (Post 94997)

Best of luck with that.

And on topic I've seen B16 Honda engines make 200 N/A whp but it took so much money and tuning it was stupid. Would have been cheaper and made more power with FI. I think the same will hold true near the 400 whp range for the Z.

Originally Posted by Phimosis (Post 95253)

Ok... math class. current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. rod length).

Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is Yamaha R6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute.

Example: Corvette Z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm.

Example: Ferrari F60 car used in 2009 Forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm.


In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail.
Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (Power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ CRnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ CRorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the VVEL timing, spark and fuel maps AND IF the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out.

Originally Posted by phimosis (Post 95253)

ok... Math class. Current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. Rod length).

Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is yamaha r6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute.

Example: Corvette z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm.

Example: Ferrari f60 car used in 2009 forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm.


In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail.
Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ crnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ crorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the vvel timing, spark and fuel maps and if the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out.

Originally Posted by Phimosis (Post 95253)

Ok... math class. current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. rod length).

Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is Yamaha R6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute.

Example: Corvette Z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm.

Example: Ferrari F60 car used in 2009 Forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm.


In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail.
Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (Power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ CRnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ CRorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the VVEL timing, spark and fuel maps AND IF the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out.

Originally Posted by Crash (Post 96161)

Heads/Cam LS2 or LS3 would be freaking sweat in the Z. Even with a mild cam and good heads, you're looking at 450+ to the wheels. Heads/Cam on the LS1 makes 420 to the wheels... The Z would be sick with that kind of power and torque. But I think the LS2 is going to throw the suspension off a bit on the Z. The motor's definitely longer and the weight is about the same.

Originally Posted by SnakeBitten (Post 95385)

Big cube motors like a 8.4Ltr Viper or 7Ltr Z06 wont gain 90-100rwhp from i/e/h and tune but a 3.7ltr 370z will? Sadly Im out of the game now but if someone can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 3.7ltr 370z can indeed make 90rwhp that easily I may have to ignore the economy and my own finances and get one at all cost.

Easy way for him to find out if that g37 is making 345rwhp. Hit the 1/4 track and tell us what your trap speed is. Im not the most knowledgable guy here but in the years of me spending at the drags Ive learned the 1/4 mile exposes bs dyno numbers from my experience. I remember a guy that supposedly made 445rwhp on a stock engined DE. I never believed him then I saw him run at the track and his best run he could only muster 113mph flat out lol. He should be easily pulling 118-122mph and on a really good run around 124mph all things being equal or at least in the 118 range consistantly. The dyno said 445rwhp but the 1/4 said NO WAY BUDDY. Dynos are for tuning and 1/4 mile is for proving Ive always said.

Originally Posted by Phimosis (Post 73519)

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3...t/370zdyno.jpg

Sorry the image quality is low. I snapped this from my iPhone.

Black line: Stock, but with rear muffler section removed.

Red line: Stillen G3 intakes, Stillen headers, Stillen Cats, Stillen exhaust.

Blue line: Stillen parts + Technosquare ECU reflash + dyno time.

In summary: $3,200 in Stillen parts gave a 26 hp increase over stock to bring it up to 328 compared to the original 302.

$700 for ECU reflash and dyno time ($500 for reflash only) gave an extra 15 whp for a total of 343 whp.

In total, it was nearly $5,000 including installation of the parts to gain 40 whp over stock. The throttle response in now extremely precise. The sound is wonderful, the over-rev to 8100 rpm is phenominal. The "Buzzy" engine vibrations that car magazines have been talking about are no worse above 7500 rpm. If anything, it smooths out a little.

One last thought: Lets pretend I gained 2 hp from removing the stock rear exhaust section. This car would have made 300 hp in this dyno. If the stock engine was 332 crank hp and it made 300 hp on this dyno, that's a conversion factor of 1.1066 for frictional loss (332/300). After mods, this car is making 343 hp on this dyno, which would be roughly 380 hp at the crank (343 x 1.1066). Not bad.

-Phim