Can you get to 400 without turbo or super-charger

Crash · 06-19-2009, 02:10 PM

Pshhh... Cam shafts... Even Ferrari doesn't use 'em! LOL

MightyBobo · 06-19-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

Pshhh... Cam shafts... Even Ferrari doesn't use 'em! LOL

Wussies.

tolnep · 06-19-2009, 04:10 PM

drop in 12.5 to 13:1 compression pistons...

have the heads stage III or stage IV prepped..

custom high lift cams, springs retainers to handle..

10,000 rpm or thereabouts.

balance the crap out of the motor..

i assume custom tune/standalone.. and of course a hand built exhaust from the exhaust ports back..

run race gas (you can get 100 octane no-lead) or 105 octane e85 (adjust fuel lines, pumps and injectors as neded)..

the thing is its about the amount of combustible energy you can get into the thing in a specific period of time, since you dont go turbo or supercharged, to get the requisite combustible materials into the motor in the same amount of time, you gotta spin that sucker faster..

add a low gear ring and pinion to make it work on the street..

and about he small blocks having more stuff available cheaper.. they've been around more than 50 years.. 50 YEARS.. and have simply evolved. there is a tremendous market for parts and thats why there's so much more..

if i was gonna look for more power out of the 370.. first hunt would be for a super charger. cosworth came out for one for the miata.. i think its about 5k, i would assume eventually similar products we bel available for the Z, thats probably the easiest and safest way to get your 'instant on' powa....

CBRich · 06-19-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tolnep

custom high lift cams, springs retainers to handle..

Best of luck with that.

And on topic I've seen B16 Honda engines make 200 N/A whp but it took so much money and tuning it was stupid. Would have been cheaper and made more power with FI. I think the same will hold true near the 400 whp range for the Z.

Crash · 06-19-2009, 08:08 PM

13:1 compression sounds about right. May need to be higher. Real gains aren't always seen until about 13.5-14:1.

ARP head bolts FTW!

MightyBobo · 06-19-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBRich

Best of luck with that.

And on topic I've seen B16 Honda engines make 200 N/A whp but it took so much money and tuning it was stupid. Would have been cheaper and made more power with FI. I think the same will hold true near the 400 whp range for the Z.

FWIW, my buddy has a 4-door Integra he races (not a Type R at all). His motor is all made by himself, and it was cheap, and I believe it put out 210 or 220 WHP or so. It was impressive, TBH.

Phimosis · 06-19-2009, 11:44 PM

Ok... math class. current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. rod length).

Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is Yamaha R6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute.

Example: Corvette Z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm.

Example: Ferrari F60 car used in 2009 Forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm.

In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail.
Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (Power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ CRnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ CRorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the VVEL timing, spark and fuel maps AND IF the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out.

PS. 470hp on a dyno with 15% frictioncal loss would equal 399.5 hp at the wheels.

CBRich · 06-20-2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phimosis

Ok... math class. current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. rod length).

Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is Yamaha R6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute.

Example: Corvette Z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm.

Example: Ferrari F60 car used in 2009 Forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm.

In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail.
Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (Power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ CRnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ CRorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the VVEL timing, spark and fuel maps AND IF the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out.

Now let's implement.

Crash · 06-20-2009, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phimosis

ok... Math class. Current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. Rod length).

Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is yamaha r6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute.

Example: Corvette z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm.

Example: Ferrari f60 car used in 2009 forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm.

In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail.
Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ crnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ crorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the vvel timing, spark and fuel maps and if the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out.

Bravo!

rufio11 · 06-20-2009, 06:26 AM

Have any of you seen the youtube video from JWT explaining the VVEL and how to tune it?

SnakeBitten · 06-20-2009, 11:21 AM

Big cube motors like a 8.4Ltr Viper or 7Ltr Z06 wont gain 90-100rwhp from i/e/h and tune but a 3.7ltr 370z will? Sadly Im out of the game now but if someone can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 3.7ltr 370z can indeed make 90rwhp that easily I may have to ignore the economy and my own finances and get one at all cost.

Easy way for him to find out if that g37 is making 345rwhp. Hit the 1/4 track and tell us what your trap speed is. Im not the most knowledgable guy here but in the years of me spending at the drags Ive learned the 1/4 mile exposes bs dyno numbers from my experience. I remember a guy that supposedly made 445rwhp on a stock engined DE. I never believed him then I saw him run at the track and his best run he could only muster 113mph flat out lol. He should be easily pulling 118-122mph and on a really good run around 124mph all things being equal or at least in the 118 range consistantly. The dyno said 445rwhp but the 1/4 said NO WAY BUDDY. Dynos are for tuning and 1/4 mile is for proving Ive always said.

tolnep · 06-20-2009, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phimosis

Ok... math class. current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. rod length).

Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is Yamaha R6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute.

Example: Corvette Z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm.

Example: Ferrari F60 car used in 2009 Forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm.

In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail.
Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (Power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ CRnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ CRorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the VVEL timing, spark and fuel maps AND IF the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out.

my statement of '10000 rpm' was a bit of a jest. to ask for 400hp out of a 3.7l street motor is no realistic. almost all hi-po street/strip builds use forced induction and not high revs. i've been hanging around built motor discussions for 30 years. to get big power turbos and superchargers are always used.

sure folks build up NA performance motors but the always get blown away by forced induction.

to get the power that he is asking for he's either gotta go FI or drop in more cubes...

heck ls3 vettes 'only' put out 436 hp at the flywheel on a large v8...

Phimosis · 06-20-2009, 07:15 PM

Tolnep - I didn't post to try to prove you wrong. You just got me wondering where the limits of this engine are. Since I spent the time to do the math on it, I just figured I would share it in this conversation.

G37Sam · 06-20-2009, 09:38 PM

If you really want to stay in the NA route, why not do an engine swap? FX50 engine or even one of those LS engines out there.

Crash · 06-21-2009, 04:47 AM

Heads/Cam LS2 or LS3 would be freaking sweat in the Z. Even with a mild cam and good heads, you're looking at 450+ to the wheels. Heads/Cam on the LS1 makes 420 to the wheels... The Z would be sick with that kind of power and torque. But I think the LS2 is going to throw the suspension off a bit on the Z. The motor's definitely longer and the weight is about the same.

06-19-2009, 02:10 PM	#136 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 590	Pshhh... Cam shafts... Even Ferrari doesn't use 'em! LOL __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

06-19-2009, 08:08 PM	#140 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 590	13:1 compression sounds about right. May need to be higher. Real gains aren't always seen until about 13.5-14:1. ARP head bolts FTW! __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

06-19-2009, 11:44 PM	#142 (permalink)
Phimosis Enthusiast Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Oildale, CA Posts: 412 Drives: 2013 911 4S Rep Power: 416	Ok... math class. current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. rod length). Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is Yamaha R6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute. Example: Corvette Z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm. Example: Ferrari F60 car used in 2009 Forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm. In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail. Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (Power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ CRnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ CRorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the VVEL timing, spark and fuel maps AND IF the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out. PS. 470hp on a dyno with 15% frictioncal loss would equal 399.5 hp at the wheels. Last edited by Phimosis; 06-20-2009 at 07:23 PM.

06-20-2009, 11:21 AM	#146 (permalink)
SnakeBitten Base Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Midwood Posts: 232 Drives: 05 DBZ M6 Rep Power: 17	Big cube motors like a 8.4Ltr Viper or 7Ltr Z06 wont gain 90-100rwhp from i/e/h and tune but a 3.7ltr 370z will? Sadly Im out of the game now but if someone can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 3.7ltr 370z can indeed make 90rwhp that easily I may have to ignore the economy and my own finances and get one at all cost. Easy way for him to find out if that g37 is making 345rwhp. Hit the 1/4 track and tell us what your trap speed is. Im not the most knowledgable guy here but in the years of me spending at the drags Ive learned the 1/4 mile exposes bs dyno numbers from my experience. I remember a guy that supposedly made 445rwhp on a stock engined DE. I never believed him then I saw him run at the track and his best run he could only muster 113mph flat out lol. He should be easily pulling 118-122mph and on a really good run around 124mph all things being equal or at least in the 118 range consistantly. The dyno said 445rwhp but the 1/4 said NO WAY BUDDY. Dynos are for tuning and 1/4 mile is for proving Ive always said. __________________ Last edited by SnakeBitten; 06-20-2009 at 11:26 AM.

06-20-2009, 09:38 PM	#149 (permalink)
G37Sam A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Dubai, UAE Posts: 1,507 Drives: RB'd G37 Rep Power: 21	If you really want to stay in the NA route, why not do an engine swap? FX50 engine or even one of those LS engines out there. __________________ '14 Viper GTS '08 RB'd G37S - Sold

06-19-2009, 04:10 PM	#138 (permalink)
tolnep Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: teluria Posts: 30 Drives: 20 mule team waggon Rep Power: 16	drop in 12.5 to 13:1 compression pistons... have the heads stage III or stage IV prepped.. custom high lift cams, springs retainers to handle.. 10,000 rpm or thereabouts. balance the crap out of the motor.. i assume custom tune/standalone.. and of course a hand built exhaust from the exhaust ports back.. run race gas (you can get 100 octane no-lead) or 105 octane e85 (adjust fuel lines, pumps and injectors as neded).. the thing is its about the amount of combustible energy you can get into the thing in a specific period of time, since you dont go turbo or supercharged, to get the requisite combustible materials into the motor in the same amount of time, you gotta spin that sucker faster.. add a low gear ring and pinion to make it work on the street.. and about he small blocks having more stuff available cheaper.. they've been around more than 50 years.. 50 YEARS.. and have simply evolved. there is a tremendous market for parts and thats why there's so much more.. if i was gonna look for more power out of the 370.. first hunt would be for a super charger. cosworth came out for one for the miata.. i think its about 5k, i would assume eventually similar products we bel available for the Z, thats probably the easiest and safest way to get your 'instant on' powa....

06-20-2009, 06:26 AM	#145 (permalink)
rufio11 Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Rancho Cucamonga CA Posts: 24 Drives: future Z driver Rep Power: 16	Have any of you seen the youtube video from JWT explaining the VVEL and how to tune it?

06-20-2009, 07:15 PM	#148 (permalink)
Phimosis Enthusiast Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Oildale, CA Posts: 412 Drives: 2013 911 4S Rep Power: 416	Tolnep - I didn't post to try to prove you wrong. You just got me wondering where the limits of this engine are. Since I spent the time to do the math on it, I just figured I would share it in this conversation.

06-21-2009, 04:47 AM	#150 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 590	Heads/Cam LS2 or LS3 would be freaking sweat in the Z. Even with a mild cam and good heads, you're looking at 450+ to the wheels. Heads/Cam on the LS1 makes 420 to the wheels... The Z would be sick with that kind of power and torque. But I think the LS2 is going to throw the suspension off a bit on the Z. The motor's definitely longer and the weight is about the same. __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

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