[OFFICIAL] Manual v. Automatic Thread

[cofo11]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Ok, then.

Pissing contests... okay, as you wish.

Typographical error. I edited a few that I caught, and I must have missed that one.

Along with deft shifting of a standard trans, proof-reading is another special skill that is losing its value. Get it in while you can, I say


A colorful choice of words; like an "eye assault" from my gibberish.

I meant that you might be making a fine distinction between different degrees of terrible design.

As another example, so far, I find you to be less terrible than small pox, but still kind of unpleasant


I prefer to "handcraft" my posts, mostly free-style rather than rely too much on automated, advanced technology; its not as fast or accurate, but I find it to be more personally engaging and rewarding


Huh?

I was worried you had suffered a stroke or something? This was all genuine concern for your health and well-being

[Jordo!]

You posted a meme, so you win!

Congrats

Also, I'd stick to memes if I were you. You come off just a little hostile when you use words

[cofo11]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

You posted a meme, so you win!

Congrats

Also, I'd stick to memes if I were you. You come off just a little hostile when you use words

Meh, memes make it easier to heed the immortal advice of the late Samuel Clemens.

[LinPark]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

... its not as fast or accurate, but I find it to be more personally engaging and rewarding

Here you are talking about how you word something as you type in a thread dedicated to MT vs AT and yet these words basically sum up what I feel is exactly the reason why I chose MT.

[N1SMOZ]

2016 and we're still talking about this lol. I don't understand why people can just drive what they want. Understand this:

Manual = fun/engaged.

Automatic = convenience

If you feel yourself being engaged with paddle shifters or sport shifter, congratulations. Drive your f'n car whether it's manual or automatic. Simple as that.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by N1SMOZ

2016 and we're still talking about this lol.

This will continue until electric motors (with not-terrible batteries and slow charging systems) are built that have high performance CVT's or some other design that makes multiple gearing ratios for torque multiplication unnecessary...

Originally Posted by N1SMOZ

I don't understand why people can just drive what they want.

People (who can afford it) can and do, but sometimes it is strongly implied or flatly stated by others that some people's needs and wants are wrong.

That's usually the point when personal preferences tend to be stated more as facts than opinions, like "clear skies are blue" and "water is wet". That can get tiresome...

Drive train loss, durability, responsiveness, shift speed and control -- these are quantifiable variables of considerable relevance to a pure sports car.

That's not even getting into whether FR, MR, or AWD transmissions are "sportier" (and FF's are usually just dismissed as not even open to consideration)...

I'm not even going get into the whole "grip is boring; sliding is fun" idea Toyota worked very hard to convince people so they wouldn't mind that their shiny new FR-S had only very modest torque available...

Anyway, qualia, attitudes, perceptions, and so on, can certainly be quantitatively scaled , but I don't know of any psychometric instrument that assesses this for motorists.

If you or anyone else does, let me know -- it'd be interesting to me to check it out.

I guess one could be adapted (say, from a "work" or "task" engagement scale, or maybe something like "flow" -- perceived Jinba Ittai maybe?), but the broad movement among manufacturers away from clutch-pedal based transmissions points to a diminishing group of consumers, who have very specific demands for their transmission, which deviate from most consumers, including sports car enthusiasts.

So by that measure, "right" or "wrong", "better" or "worse, it seems that the consensus preference is for the "convenient" sports car.

That said, in a way, you might argue that catering to the relatively few consumers who want a MT is also "convenience" based -- it would certainly be ""inconvenient for a driver who wanted a particular car, but demands some form of MT, if one isn't even available for purchase.

But lets not beat around the bush here: "Convenience" is a term usually applied as a euphemism for "lazy" on car forums...

On that note...

Originally Posted by N1SMOZ

Understand this:

Manual = fun/engaged.

Automatic = convenience

This is my point.

These are value judgments, stated (jokingly?) as if they were facts regarding how the nervous system of motorists are (should be?) "wired up" if working properly -- as in "sugar tastes sweet" and "sodium tastes salty", and something is amiss in one's taste buds if the two tastes cannot be differentiated.

Now, if you add the qualifier "...in my view," then you are not implying 7AT drivers have chosen a high performance sports car more for "convenience" than "fun".

Originally Posted by N1SMOZ

If you feel yourself being engaged with paddle shifters or sport shifter, congratulations. Drive your f'n car whether it's manual or automatic. Simple as that.

Yep. Except for the strongly biased comments that people casually make get lobbed at those of us with the 7AT like rocks at a publicly sanctioned stoning.

And that is why this thread exists and why it attracts a lot of impassioned debate.

I find all of this especially interesting because the central arguments of those who seem to have a strong preference for MT's have moved away from calling attention to performance differences between MT's and AT's to subjective perceptions.

That's fine -- but when I read people saying things like "I don't care if it's slower, its just better" then we've strayed out of what's your "favorite color" or "favorite flavor" territory.

People show these sorts of biases for all sorts of things without even realizing it, and it can hit Israel vs. Palestine levels of disagreement in a flash

Car enthusiasts are, unsurprisingly, very prone to view their preferences as not only "best for oneself" but "best overall for everyone." Contesting this point usually becomes an exercise in working valiantly towards agreeing to disagree.

That's pretty much what happened here (and I will accept some blame for this... )

Originally Posted by LinPark

Here you are talking about how you word something as you type in a thread dedicated to MT vs AT and yet these words basically sum up what I feel is exactly the reason why I chose MT.

Yes.

Originally Posted by cofo11

Meh, memes make it easier to heed the immortal advice of the late Samuel Clemens.

I'm more of an Ambrose Bierce fan, myself

[dvboy]

Wow.....this topic has gone crazy.I am 50 yrs old,been driving a MT for close to 30 years and currently have a MT 370z.Back in the old days the MT was not only more fun to drive,but some would argue it was faster,now it's a fact the AT is faster and the paddle shifter has increased its fun factor.To me it's 6 of one,half a dozen of the other,make your choice and enjoy without bashing the other option.

[N1SMOZ]

Originally Posted by dvboy

Wow.....this topic has gone crazy.I am 50 yrs old,been driving a MT for close to 30 years and currently have a MT 370z.Back in the old days the MT was not only more fun to drive,but some would argue it was faster,now it's a fact the AT is faster and the paddle shifter has increased its fun factor.To me it's 6 of one,half a dozen of the other,make your choice and enjoy without bashing the other option.

This is exactly my point. There's no science behind which is better when it comes to personal preference, because that's just what it is…PERSONAL preference. Drive what you're gonna drive, grow up, and realize AT/MT all have it's pros and cons. That person you're arguing with doesn't stay up at night because of your opinion.

[cofo11]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

This will continue until electric motors (with not-terrible batteries and slow charging systems) are built that have high performance CVT's or some other design that makes multiple gearing ratios for torque multiplication unnecessary...


People (who can afford it) can and do, but sometimes it is strongly implied or flatly stated by others that some people's needs and wants are wrong.

That's usually the point when personal preferences tend to be stated more as facts than opinions, like "clear skies are blue" and "water is wet". That can get tiresome...

Drive train loss, durability, responsiveness, shift speed and control -- these are quantifiable variables of considerable relevance to a pure sports car.

That's not even getting into whether FR, MR, or AWD transmissions are "sportier" (and FF's are usually just dismissed as not even open to consideration)...

I'm not even going get into the whole "grip is boring; sliding is fun" idea Toyota worked very hard to convince people so they wouldn't mind that their shiny new FR-S had only very modest torque available...

Anyway, qualia, attitudes, perceptions, and so on, can certainly be quantitatively scaled , but I don't know of any psychometric instrument that assesses this for motorists.

If you or anyone else does, let me know -- it'd be interesting to me to check it out.

I guess one could be adapted (say, from a "work" or "task" engagement scale, or maybe something like "flow" -- perceived Jinba Ittai maybe?), but the broad movement among manufacturers away from clutch-pedal based transmissions points to a diminishing group of consumers, who have very specific demands for their transmission, which deviate from most consumers, including sports car enthusiasts.

So by that measure, "right" or "wrong", "better" or "worse, it seems that the consensus preference is for the "convenient" sports car.

That said, in a way, you might argue that catering to the relatively few consumers who want a MT is also "convenience" based -- it would certainly be ""inconvenient for a driver who wanted a particular car, but demands some form of MT, if one isn't even available for purchase.

But lets not beat around the bush here: "Convenience" is a term usually applied as a euphemism for "lazy" on car forums...

On that note...


This is my point.

These are value judgments, stated (jokingly?) as if they were facts regarding how the nervous system of motorists are (should be?) "wired up" if working properly -- as in "sugar tastes sweet" and "sodium tastes salty", and something is amiss in one's taste buds if the two tastes cannot be differentiated.

Now, if you add the qualifier "...in my view," then you are not implying 7AT drivers have chosen a high performance sports car more for "convenience" than "fun".


Yep. Except for the strongly biased comments that people casually make get lobbed at those of us with the 7AT like rocks at a publicly sanctioned stoning.

And that is why this thread exists and why it attracts a lot of impassioned debate.

I find all of this especially interesting because the central arguments of those who seem to have a strong preference for MT's have moved away from calling attention to performance differences between MT's and AT's to subjective perceptions.

That's fine -- but when I read people saying things like "I don't care if it's slower, its just better" then we've strayed out of what's your "favorite color" or "favorite flavor" territory.

People show these sorts of biases for all sorts of things without even realizing it, and it can hit Israel vs. Palestine levels of disagreement in a flash

Car enthusiasts are, unsurprisingly, very prone to view their preferences as not only "best for oneself" but "best overall for everyone." Contesting this point usually becomes an exercise in working valiantly towards agreeing to disagree.

That's pretty much what happened here (and I will accept some blame for this... )


Yes.



I'm more of an Ambrose Bierce fan, myself

https://youtu.be/LQCU36pkH7c

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk

[FPenvy]

man I should really check in on the weekends. look at all the fun I missed

[Marviee]

2016 / coming up to 2017 you would think people don't really care what transmission you drive now a days. You have the same car -_-

[N1SMOZ]

Originally Posted by Marviee

2016 / coming up to 2017 you would think people don't really care what transmission you drive now a days. You have the same car -_-

The last post was in May. No one was talking about it and you decide to revive this thread with a useless comment? Lmao.

[jwick]

Originally Posted by N1SMOZ

The last post was in May. No one was talking about it and you decide to revive this thread with a useless comment? Lmao.

This thread is filled with worthless comments. Most of them by Frank.

[FPenvy]

Originally Posted by jwick

This thread is filled with worthless comments. Most of them by Frank.

You rang? Lol

[jwick]

Originally Posted by FPenvy

You rang? Lol

Couldn't find the Batlight pic