[OFFICIAL] Manual v. Automatic Thread

[FERRARI]

I know auto vs manual both have their pros and cons. An auto is faster, Yes.
I personally get bored driving an automatic to the point where id rather have someone drive me around. I feel more involved and focused with a manual, its personal and gratifying. id rather battle up hill traffic in the city with a manual any day over a auto. just saying from working 6 years in the city driving different cars/truck with manual trannys






You nailed it...........That is what it is all about ! That is why you drive A SPORTS CAR !

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by FERRARI

I know auto vs manual both have their pros and cons. An auto is faster, Yes.
I personally get bored driving an automatic to the point where id rather have someone drive me around. I feel more involved and focused with a manual, its personal and gratifying. id rather battle up hill traffic in the city with a manual any day over a auto. just saying from working 6 years in the city driving different cars/truck with manual trannys






You nailed it...........That is what it is all about ! That is why you drive A SPORTS CAR !

Uh... but... https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the...anual-ferrari/

That was some time ago. Unless something changed that I missed, three pedals are officially now less likely to be found in a "true" or "pure" sports car.

See further Alpha 4C, Lamborghini, the GT-R and so on.

Porsche did a limited release "purists" 911 I seem to recall...

I'll forgo revisiting in detail an observation I made some time ago that "perceived manual-ness" was seemingly more important than actual mechanical design, resultant performance, or actual (vs. perceived) control.

[cofo11]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Uh... but... https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the...anual-ferrari/

That was some time ago. Unless something changed that I missed, three pedals are officially now less likely to be found in a "true" or "pure" sports car.

See further Alpha 4C, Lamborghini, the GT-R and so on.

Porsche did a limited release "purists" 911 I seem to recall...

I'll forgo revisiting in detail an observation I made some time ago that "perceived manual-ness" was seemingly more important than actual mechanical design, resultant performance, or actual (vs. perceived) control.

Yes but those cars are still manuals. They have something a 370z automatic does not, and are missing something that a 370z automatic does have. That makes all the difference.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by cofo11

Yes but those cars are still manuals. They have something a 370z automatic does not, and are missing something that a 370z automatic does have. That makes all the difference.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk

And that would be...?

A solid connection to the axle? Yes, the Z has full lockup after 2nd gear.

A Veloceter has a dual-clutch trans, and it is slow to change gears and performs poorly.

I guess I did need to revisit my "perceived manual-ness" point a bit after all...

Let's look at this another way: All "real" sports cars will soon be gone, except for older models.

So, either your view on this will change, you will stop buying new sports cars, because of their lack of purity, and/or you will eventually baffle and annoy your kids or grandkids about why their lame (but likely very fast and less polluting) cars sorely need an extra pedal to matter.

If Jeremy Clarkson, commentator, car aficionado, and all around nob could learn to stop complaining bout "flappy paddles", then anyone can...

[cofo11]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

And that would be...?

A solid connection to the axle? Yes, the Z has full lockup after 2nd gear.

A Veloceter has a dual-clutch trans, and it is slow to change gears and performs poorly.

I guess I did need to revisit my "perceived manual-ness" point a bit after all...

Let's look at this another way: All "real" sports cars will soon be gone, except for older models.

So, either your view on this will change, you will stop buying new sports cars, because of their lack of purity, and/or you will eventually baffle and annoy your kids or grandkids about why their lame (but likely very fast and less polluting) cars sorely need an extra pedal to matter.

If Jeremy Clarkson, commentator, car aficionado, and all around nob could learn to stop complaining bout "flappy paddles", then anyone can...

The fact that you came so close to hitting the nail on the head despite your derision and changing from boutique cars to a mass produced econo box to attempt to justify your failed premise is comical.

The part that your Z does not have is a clutch. The part that the cars you listed do not have is a torque converter. Many, like myself, do not mind paddles when they are mated to a properly clutched transmission. A torque converter is not a clutch. That in itself makes it laughable when the "well the GTR has paddle shifters" argument is made. It shows ignorance as to what each car's transmission is comprised of.

I have no issue with ATs other than I dislike the feel and drawbacks of a torque converter. If that's what you want to drive then that's your perogative and that's great. Just quit making factually incorrect justifications as to why you do.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by cofo11

The fact that you came so close to hitting the nail on the head despite your derision and changing from boutique cars to a mass produced econo box to attempt to justify your failed premise is comical.

The part that your Z does not have is a clutch. The part that the cars you listed do not have is a torque converter. Many, like myself, do not mind paddles when they are mated to a properly clutched transmission. A torque converter is not a clutch. That in itself makes it laughable when the "well the GTR has paddle shifters" argument is made. It shows ignorance as to what each car's transmission is comprised of.

I have no issue with ATs other than I dislike the feel and drawbacks of a torque converter. If that's what you want to drive then that's your perogative and that's great. Just quit making factually incorrect justifications as to why you do.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk

Okay... so your problem is the presence or absence of a torque converter.

Fine.

Question: Given the following two options, would you prefer a clunky or slow-shifting non-torque converter equipped car or a fast-shifting torque converter equipped car? (we'll leave the shifter and 3rd pedal out of this).

Your answer will address my point that this is all about perceived "manual-ness", not performance, not design.

And here's the thing -- you and I (and I guess FERRARI), at least, are NOT debating preference, but rather pretending to do so.

You and he are telling us -- maybe very seriously, maybe not -- that a TRUE, PURE, PROPER sports car will not have a torque converter involved in the mix in any way, shape, or form.

This raises some questions about, say, V8 Jaguar F-types (I think they introduced a standard for the latest V6's that have gotten mixed reviews...).

Anyway, unless I'm missing your point, you are saying that the presence or absence of a torque converter trumps all other design and performance issues in terms of a car's pure sportiness.

If someone feels that way, then essentially that person is saying preference is irrelevant to the matter at hand, which is how does one define a sports car.

Look at this way: There's many, many different sects of various religions -- say, for, example the many different Christian faiths.

A Unitarian or agnostic approach might involve seeing equal merit (or lack thereof) in any given form of spirituality, taking the position that no one knows which religious secular view (or even if any faith) is "right".

However, you are nailing the 95 Thesis to my torque converter. You are telling Pope torque converter you want an annulment. You are telling me that a torque converter is wrong.

You are telling people "chocolate is better than vanilla" -- period, end of story, not "to each their own".

Simply saying, "sure, everyone is entitled to their perceptions on this issue" is very different from saying "everyone's perceptions on this issue are of defensibly equal value and accuracy".

In short, if you feel strongly that there is a "correct" and "incorrect" answer to the question of "What constitutes a proper sports car's transmission", then at best you are agreeing to disagree.

[cofo11]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Okay... so your problem is the presence or absence of a torque converter.

Fine.

Question: Given the following two options, would you prefer a clunky or slow-shifting non-torque converter equipped car or a fast-shifting torque converter equipped car? (we'll leave the shifter and 3rd pedal out of this).

Your answer will address my point that this is all about perceived "manual-ness", not performance, not design.

And here's the thing -- you and I (and I guess FERRARI), at least, are NOT debating preference, but rather pretending to do so.

You and he are telling us -- maybe very seriously, maybe not -- that a TRUE, PURE, PROPER sports car will not have a torque converter involved in the mix in any way, shape, or form.

This raises some questions about, say, V8 Jaguar F-types (I think they introduced a standard for the latest V6's that have gotten mixed reviews...).

Anyway, unless I'm missing your point, you are saying that the presence or absence of a torque converter trumps all other design and performance issues in terms of a car's pure sportiness.

If someone feels that way, then essentially that person is saying preference is irrelevant to the matter at hand, which is how does one define a sports car.

Look at this way: There's many, many different sects of various religions -- say, for, example the many different Christian faiths.

A Unitarian or agnostic approach might involve seeing equal merit (or lack thereof) in any given form of spirituality, taking the position that no one knows which religious secular view (or even if any faith) is "right".

However, you are nailing the 95 Thesis to my torque converter. You are telling Pope torque converter you want an annulment. You are telling me that a torque converter is wrong.

You are telling people "chocolate is better than vanilla" -- period, end of story, not "to each their own".

Simply saying, "sure, everyone is entitled to their perceptions on this issue" is very different from saying "everyone's perceptions on this issue are of defensibly equal value and accuracy".

In short, if you feel strongly that there is a "correct" and "incorrect" answer to the question of "What constitutes a proper sports car's transmission", then at best you are agreeing to disagree.

In the absence of a valid argument one must turn to jibberish to formulate a counter point, as you have just proven, but I will do my best to make some semblance of sense out of your completely nonsensical response.

First and foremost, you need to work on your reading comprehension (this might also allow you to formulate a sensical rebuttal rather than the jibberish you just assaulted our eyes with). I never claimed that one was better than the other just my personal preference.

Second, your entire rant about slow shifting versus fast shifting is the classical non-sequitor fallacy, ie it does not follow, as I would not prefer either.

Third, you continually go back to "perceived manualness as if it is some unique thing to a certain transmission type. Hint, my 89 AT Bronco can be selectively shifted so I'm not sure what your point is here.

Fourth, out of all of the mentioned transmissions, leaving CVTs out of it, the torque converter transmission is the most parasitic and in many cases a high performance iteration will not hold the same power levels as its clutched siblings.

Fifth, the fact that a TC has to perform a physical lockup to simulate a solid link can be felt and in certain instances will cause a delay in responsiveness despite how well it performs 98% of the time.

Sixth, as far as responsiveness goes a properly designed DCT will trump all do the very nature of its designed. That said a properly designed DCT is not cheap.

As said before I'm not arguing preferences. If you like your AT more power to you, and it's great. I do not like the feel of a TC and as such do not drive vehicles that have them if at all avoidable. My only issue is with the blatant falsehoods and logical, (illogical is perhaps a better word here), leaps you make to justify your choice. Just own your choice don't make up fantasies and fallacies as to why you are correct.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk