[OFFICIAL] Manual v. Automatic Thread

[Jordo!]

Well, as I've said before: If the Top Gear guys have come to accept and even embrace "flappy paddle gearboxes"* (they don't seem to complain anymore), it seems that other car enthusiasts might consider following suit.

Anyway, nobody will feel the need to make excuses or provide detailed explanations for their car if they're not attacked, directly or indirectly, for it... just sayin'.**

EDIT:
*By which I really mean: "automatic transmissions, regardless of mechanical design, developed for high performance applications".

The latest iteration of the 7AT doesn't even have paddles in base form, and many cars with paddle shifters have poorly designed transmissions. I hang my head in shame for failing to spell this all out more precisely in my original post.

Sheesh.

**This comment was the more critical point to reflect on...

[b15]

The flappy paddle gearboxes as referred to on Top Gear arent torque converter automatics. Not downing the 7at, but let's not be real here. Flappy paddle gearboxes, as coined by Top Gear = dct. The 7at, is not.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by b15

The flappy paddle gearboxes as referred to on Top Gear arent torque converter automatics. Not downing the 7at, but let's not be real here. Flappy paddle gearboxes, as coined by Top Gear = dct. The 7at, is not.

Groan.

Why exactly does that matter? Performance? Concept? Imagined stigma?

The DCT on the Veloster sucks syphilitic monkey balls and the "slushbox" on the Jaguar F-type coupe is generally regarded as sublime.

No one at Top Gear is going to crap all over the new Jag because somewhere, low in it's underbelly, lurks a very embarrassingly un-sporty torque converter. I think they'll endure the shame for the good of the Empire.

The flappy paddles refer to, well, the flappy paddles, not to the presence or absence of a torque converter...

[b15]

When Top Gear coined that phrase they were reviewing automated manuals and dcts in very high end sports/super cars, not conventional ATs with paddles.

Then manufacturers got in the band wagon and threw paddles onto their slushboxes as a 'sporty option'. The 7at comparisons, referencing Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc. are comical. Yes these high end sports cars are shifting away from manuals but they certainly aren't shifting towards a torque converter. My Maxima rental this week has paddles, by literal interpretation of the phrase, that makes this CVT a flappy paddle gearbox, correct? Even though it has no gears? Or how about the 7at in the g37x I had. Essentially the same transmission without paddles but does the exact same thing via the shifter as the Z with paddles? Is that just an automatic?

Again, I think the 7at is a good trans, I've driven it in Z, G, and FX applications, but it's not 'flappy paddle gearbox', at least by my definition and what Top Gear was testing when they coined the phrase.

[b15]

But then again arguing semantics is pointless. Everyone has their own viewpoints/opinions. Make all the comparisons/claims you want. If you enjoy it, who cares! At least our cars looks damn good!

[watson853]

I'll never understand why a DCT is so important especially since they aren't known for there long term reliability. Our old school auto shifts almost as fast as a DCT and its a more reliable and proven design. Don't get me wrong I love DCT transmissions but what would we gain over the current design? Most likely we would get a slightly quicker shift and I mean slightly with a bunch of new maintenance costs and most likely more serious reliability issues. Now more importantly lets get back to arguing over the term "flappy paddles".


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[b15]

The flappy paddle gearbox in my Maxima is great! Shifts so fast and smooth, just like the Z

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by b15

But then again arguing semantics is pointless. Everyone has their own viewpoints/opinions. Make all the comparisons/claims you want. If you enjoy it, who cares! At least our cars looks damn good!

I'm not looking to argue semantics or taxonomy. This is a matter of the role of logic, reason, and personal bias in making sense of things. Why dismiss it? It's not as if there isn't a lot of emotion, time, and energy invested in the subject of defining a "proper sports car." Accordingly, tarring and feathering usually follows a difference of opinion... sounds like its worth thinking about to me. Isn't that what the thread is about?

The Top Gear guys probably have no idea how either a torque converter or a DCT work -- those guys are notoriously ignorant (and happy to remain so) on the inner workings of cars. That name was inspired by having paddles to flap. It's irrelevant to the point -- change what I said to "higher performance AT's" instead.

Anyway, my point is: If an automated trans works well, it should be better liked, and if it works poorly, then irrespective of how it works, it should be less liked.

In other words, if a driver's controlled inputs for shifts result in fast, precise gear changes, why does it matter how they're mechanically actuated?

This fine shade of gray regarding general approval or disapproval of AT's seems to be all based on a general distaste for anything involving a torque converter, regardless of how well it works. That doesn't make any sense to me.

On that note, I doubt the AT on the Maxima shifts as well as the Z as they are probably different units, with different gearing, and different tunes. On the other hand, the Maxima, the Z, the IS-F and the Jaguar F-type all have a "slushbox". Therefore the AT on all of these cars are equivalent and terrible?

[FPenvy]

Originally Posted by b15

The flappy paddle gearboxes as referred to on Top Gear arent torque converter automatics. Not downing the 7at, but let's not be real here. Flappy paddle gearboxes, as coined by Top Gear = dct. The 7at, is not.

you do realize not every car on top gear that they say "flappy paddle gearbox" is a DCT right?

aventador - single clutch
pagani huayara - single clutch
etc...

again another incorrect piece of info by B15 trying to down on the 7AT.

[b15]

Originally Posted by FPenvy

you do realize not every car on top gear that they say "flappy paddle gearbox" is a DCT right?

aventador - single clutch
pagani huayara - single clutch
etc...

again another incorrect piece of info by B15 trying to down on the 7AT.

FPenvy and his failure to read, at it again! Allow me to quote from my previous posts for our #1 7AT fanboy.

Originally Posted by b15

When Top Gear coined that phrase they were reviewing automated manuals and dcts in very high end sports/super cars, not conventional ATs with paddles.

Here I was referring to a single clutch system. Notice how I also referenced the DCT? But yes, let's argue some more over semantics.

Originally Posted by b15

Again, I think the 7at is a good trans, I've driven it in Z, G, and FX applications

Here, I said I think it's a good trans.

[TerribleONE]

You guys comparing the Zs AT to the Aventador and other single clutch transmissions crack me up. Also, I am willing to bet that anyone saying that the 7AT shifts almost as fast as a GTR or 458 has never driven a real DTC.

[FPenvy]

Originally Posted by TerribleONE

You guys comparing the Zs AT to the Aventador and other single clutch transmissions crack me up. Also, I am willing to bet that anyone saying that the 7AT shifts almost as fast as a GTR or 458 has never driven a real DTC.

why do you gotta go and ruin my trolls lol

[b15]

Originally Posted by TerribleONE

You guys comparing the Zs AT to the Aventador and other single clutch transmissions crack me up. Also, I am willing to bet that anyone saying that the 7AT shifts almost as fast as a GTR or 458 has never driven a real DTC.

Every single 7AT vs manual references this. #2 argument is that manuals are archaic. Last I checked, so are TC automatics. In the old days, making a slushbox shift fast required aftermarket mods, so it is good to see manufacturers finally doing this from the factory. It's still not a direct connection like a manual or semi-automatic. Yes I know the TC locks up...

And for FPenvy....I still think the 7AT is a good trans

[FPenvy]

Originally Posted by b15

FPenvy and his failure to read, at it again! Allow me to quote from my previous posts for our #1 7AT fanboy.



Here I was referring to a single clutch system. Notice how I also referenced the DCT? But yes, let's argue some more over semantics.



Here, I said I think it's a good trans.

oh no i dont fail to read. i fail to care about anything you say. i honestly just like fuckin with everyone in here and you are a easy target to troll

isn't this what the internet is for?

[b15]

Originally Posted by FPenvy

oh no i dont fail to read. i fail to care about anything you say. i honestly just like fuckin with everyone in here and you are a easy target to troll

isn't this what the internet is for?

it's mutual