CSF Radiator + Condenser, Upgrade
 

CSF has been designing radiators for the past 40 years for everything from automobiles to tanks. I feel that they're not very well known in the Japanese tuning community but they make some good quality and functional radiators at a good price.

One of their reps stopped by the office this week with their 370z radiator/condenser prototype for us to have a look. I believe this is the only aftermarket replacement for the 370z that has come out so far and from the numbers they're giving us, it looks like it will greatly help with the heating issues associated with the 370z.

Highlights:
CSF uses B-tube technology in their cores. These tubes are stronger, create more surface area with the water running through the unit, and increases the cooling efficency by 15% over standard tubes.

By using louvered fins, CSF is able to achieve a higher efficiency core with better airflow through both 1 and 2-row models. These models is wind tunnel tested by their R&D department to maximize the precision and efficiency of the core.

These units are "drop-in fit" for easy installation with OEM fittings and mountings. Each unit is complete with a professional aluminum drain plug.

CSF units undergo vibration, thermal cycle, burst cycle, salt spray, and leak test before being approved for construction. Even their boxes undergo a 10 foot drop test.

This High Performance and racing system will keep engine temperatures at optimal levels in the most demanding driving and outside temperature conditions. A gain of up to 40% better cooling can be realized with our units.

Let me know what you guys think. Open for any questions!

Availability: These will be released and in stock by August 2010.

Price: $849 (+$50 for the 7AT version)
If we can get a list of pre-orders going, I'll see if I can get everyone a discounted price.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Specs:

Note* This is the handmade prototype. The production units will have even spaced fins and even nicer welds.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t...om/Capture.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t.../P1020479w.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t.../P1020483w.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t.../P1020480w.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t.../P1020481w.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t.../P1020482w.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t.../P1020484w.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t.../P1020485w.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t.../P1020486w.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t.../P1020488w.jpg

-Mike Bratcher

are those bypass gaps at the end of the fin rows a design feature, or is that a prototype only issue?

Mike, after seeing all those JDM art pieces you usually advertise its hard to accept something with welds that look like Michael J. Fox welded after doing jumping jacks.


Just playing, looks pretty good!

I'll check with CSF.

Haha, good one :roflpuke2:
I actually was picky about those too, but CSF says it's just a prototype and that the production pieces will be cleaner.

-Mike Bratcher

:wtf2:

I get hot for cooling-enhancement products, but jeez, $850 for a radiator? Dang.

Do you have anything else to compare it to? I happen to think it's an amazing price for what you are getting. This should be a better solution than simply bolting on an oil cooler.

-Mike Bratcher

Pun intended?

And on topic I can't wait to see the final product. And I'm gonna throw this bone out there. Oil temp decrease as a result?

Yes, actually, the PWR and BHR and Koyo radiators we put in our RX-8s were between $350-$550 less than a year ago. These were beautifully made pieces, and as you may know, the rotary engine runs majorly hot and has its own special cooling needs. Thus, I believe the comparison is apt. I'm not knocking this effort, but it's high, no way around it. :stirthepot:

I feel it's unfair to compare radiators for different manufacturers and car models. I was more referring to comparing another radiator for the 370z. I don't believe there are any others. Also, keep in mind that this is a radiator and condenser combination.

I will admit that it does seem to be higher than the average radiator cost for other vehicles, but that can be said for many of the other parts for the 370z in general. Here's just one example; look how much HKS exhaust fluctuate between models. Many of them are even very similar designs:
HKS USA Hi-Power Exhaust

The point is, comparing parts from different cars isn't getting you anywhere. If you find a radiator and condenser combination that is cheaper, then we have something to talk about :)

I hope this helps!

-Mike Bratcher

It will be interesting to see the final product.
For now, it is the only option available for a replacement cooling radiator on the 370Z and I have it on my optiion list for the future.

OK, Mike, fair enough. Your points are well taken and yes, I did miss the fact of the condenser component being added to the equation--not just a straight-ahead radiator comparison. Take care.
Jeffrey :tiphat:

Thanks Jeffrey, and feel free to chime in if you have any other questions or concerns. I'm always happy to discuss.. that's the beauty of forums :hello:

-Mike Bratcher

Just wanted to update you guys on a few things.

The availability is still set for early-mid August. There will a limited amount in the first batch so if anyone is urgent, let me know ahead of time. More should follow shortly after.

Testing data should be released in 1-2 weeks.

CSF also reiterated that the build quality of these radiators will be "JDM" quality for the production units. They are putting a lot of focus on the quality of the units to set the standard for aftermarket 370z radiators. These are still the first radiators soon to be available for the 370z platform!

As always, ask any questions you're thinking.

-Mike Bratcher

has anyone even managed to get their car to over heat yet? maybe some with a TT. I have never seen my car go past middle temps even while beating the crap out of on hot days.

I got mine over the middle once. On a race track air temp was 95F.

The product looks great but the only cooling I need is oil cooling. My temps are below the middle almost all the time too.

Still waiting to hear if that gap is a prototype-only issue or not.

And can someone explain to me what the heck B-tube technology is.

That's because the Water Temp LED readout is not a "real" gauge. The same 7th light stays lit from 156 degrees to over 215. Watching a Scangauge output, the Z runs pretty cool for a modern emissions equipped car. Typically around 180-185. Water temp is really not an issue, except perhaps under heavy and hot track conditions.

Sorry Phelan, forgot to post up. The gaps are part of the design, but they're going to try to line up the fins better.

Also regarding cooling, this radiator is not only supposed keep water temps cooler, but in turn help with the engine oil temperature as a result of the coolant that flows through the engine being cooler. The 370z heavily relies on the radiator to keep the entire engine cool. By installing a more efficient radiator, your entire engine will benefit from the increased efficiency; essentially knocking out 2 birds with one stone.

-Mike Bratcher

Mike I would be willing to test their radiator! 4.5L Sleeved block can get hot! What ya say... would they be game?

I think that I wouldn't want this.

future oil cooler + this would be cooling overkill

Thanks for all the PM's Mike!!!! I look forward to running their production version in august. Now I have to find a good local shop to do the install... hmmm maybe z1 :tup:

The way I look at it is; hit the core of the problem. Why add more parts to your car when the problem can be fixed by upgrading an existing? On top of that, it improves the cooling of the entire engine instead of just the oil.

Replacing the radiator seems to make the most sense to me. Let me know if you feel otherwise.

-Mike Bratcher

Well...Ultimately the Thermostat will regulate the engine water temp. A larger more efficient radiator will just cause the thermostat to close down to maintain its setting of roughly 180 degrees. In normal day to day driving I would expect no difference...

That said, under racing conditions where the Radiator may near it's upper limit of cooling, an uprated radiator will help by raising the (water) cooling overhead though no one has mentioned this as an issue to date

So when all is said and done, there is a market for this part albeit a small one. Track cars and FI turbo'd cars being the target I would guess.

Oil cooling is a whole separate issue and should be addressed with it's own cooler. Oil temps reported here seem to vary more by usage, then by engine water or ambient air temps

Well the biggest problem that the 370 has is the oil temperature, not the water. I know that better water cooling might help the oil abit. but honestly it wont so much a difference. I drove at spa francorchamps for a whole day and the water temperature if I remember was only one dot above the normal one. Oil was extremely hot.

Our current radiator seems to do its just quite well.

Well ofcourse if you send me one to test it out I wouldn't mind at aaaall

What would be considered a high water temperature?

My HR G got up to 220F (Uprev Cipher) after about 10 consecutive dyno runs. The fan on the dyno was blowing hot air due to the 120F ambient temps.

That's not very high actually. The radiator fan cycles on at 215 degrees. You can see that sitting in traffic on a hot day..

the fan is set at 215F? hmm...
I think mine is set lower due to GCC cooling specs (we have bigger radiators, lower temp thermostat, standard trans oil cooler, sandwich plate oil cooler/warmer, etc.)

What is the actual temperature of the water when it's half way on the car's gauge then?
Cuz our gauges here are different. Temps for me reach about 195-200F during normal driving and the gauge is at about 1/4 only. All nissans here read this way.

In the US the gauge is bogus. The same 7th light is lit from 155 to 215+

We should have testing data soon so it should help clear things up.

Also, here is some more information about CSF's B tube technology which helps in getting the most our of the radiator.

Unlike a regular oval shape "O" type radiator tube, CSF uses a specially engineered tube in a shape of a "B". These "B-tubes" are carefully formed and then brazed over the seam to seal. CSF is able to use thinner and lighter aluminum material (better cooling efficiency) because this design is actually stronger than normal "O" shape tubes that are welded.

The design (inlet in the middle of tube that is seam brazed) increases the heat transfer surface area of the tube by approximately 15% over regular tubes. You get the efficiency of 2 smaller tubes vs. 1 large tube within the same space criteria. With "B-tubes" you are able to get "dual liquid laminar flow."

The tubes are made from aircraft grade special clad aluminum and are intricately formed on our high precession 6-stage tube forming mill. No other aftermarket radiator manufacturer uses this technology. This technology raises the bar and sets the standard for high performance radiator cores.

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/t.../Capture-3.jpg

-Mike Bratcher

I like the thing but I still wont buy it. Untill my water seems to actually overheat this is a pointless mod.

But I cant wait to see the finished shiny thing

I don't want to step on anybody's toes here but I know a lot about this particular product and I think I should jump in and comment.

First of all, I have actually done the prototype/test fitment for CSF. Some of you may remember at our open house event back in May we displayed this radiator for them. At that time, the unit had not been installed in a car. It wasn't until a few weeks ago when I personally did the first test fitment for CSF and found that this unit did not fit. There were a number of issues that CSF is in the process of correcting but in my opinion, a delivery date of August is not likely, and if any units are delivered in august, they would be untested. We have been working with CSF for many years now and are the exclusive distributor of their Nissan Titan radiator. Their radiators are very good quality and they work very well. When these have been tested and proven to fit, I would highly recommend them. However, I know CSF's manufacturing procedures and I know that they do not have a 370Z to do the test fitment on, which is why we did it for them...

CSF has a 90 day manufacturing timeline. We did the test fitment for them early this month...So that means any unit they ship in August would be a unit that has not gone through a final test fitment. In my opinion, they need to make one more prototype that fits correctly before they go into production with these units. Unless they decide to make their changes and trust that they're 100% perfect, manufacture 25-50 units then do another test fitment and risk that they got it right the second time.

Additionally, these radiators will not help with oil cooling. As Modshack mentioned, the thermostat controls the engine coolant temperature and it is completely unrelated to the engine oil. The radiator will help keep oil temperatures a little cooler in extreme conditions but not very much. With the extreme overheating conditions the engine oil sees on these cars there is no substitute for an external engine oil cooler.

Hello members of the370z.com. I'd like to introduce myself, I'm Ravi Dolwani, General Manager of the Racing & High Performance Division of CSF Inc.

Ive been monitoring the forum, especially this thread during the development of our "patented" radiator/condenser module for the 370Z/G37. There seems to be a lot of interest and a lot of questions on what this unit will achieve. Hopefully my response below will help clear up any questions, assumptions, and misunderstandings associated with our product.

1) The original radiator/condenser unit is 32mm thick. With the radiator only being 15mm thick. In a high performance application, such as the 370Z/G37, a 1/2 inch thick radiator core is not very sufficient in properly cooling the engine when driven in spirited driving conditions, especially in hot weather. The cooling efficiency of the radiator is compromised even more because it first has to pass through the condenser, and the airflow to the unit is less than ideal due to the front fascia design. Depending on outside temperatures, there is a high possibility that by time the air finally passes through the radiator it is already hot.

The cooling efficiency will be even more compromised as many drivers choose to SC/TC or add long tube intakes to these vehicles adding another barrier between the radiator and fresh cold air. In a SC/TC setup, adding an intercooler to the front of the car will only make the air that finally enters the radiator even hotter.

Our unit is 48mm thick with a 30 mm radiator core (2X the size), a 5mm air escape gap, and a 13 mm condenser. When we first started designing this unit we wanted to manufacturer both pieces separately for several reasons below:
A) Air escape gap - The 5mm space between the radiator and condenser allows hot air to leave the cooling system, while allowing the colder (denser) air to pass through to the radiator.
B) Creates more surface area contact between the air and front surface of the radiator core, promoting greater cooling efficiency.
C) Allows the condenser to be removed from the vehicle for even better airflow and lighter weight for track and race applications.

2) My second item to discuss is the development, testing, and fitment of our cooling module. Let me first start this topic by saying:
"This has been one of the most difficult and challenging cooling systems our company has ever developed."

This statement may not mean a lot to all the readers who have never heard about our company or have little knowledge of us. But...
CSF has been in business for over 45 years and we've sold over 35 million radiators in the U.S. We're OE suppliers and partners to companies around the world such as Mercedes Benz, John Deer, Isuzu, Griffen, Stillen and Bombardier...

With all that said, this vehicle has presented us challenges due to the space restrictions, especially with the addition of other manufacturers parts (intakes, oil coolers, intercoolers) to take into account when designing this unit. Also, the radiator is mounted to the bottom of the core support, and the fan shroud is not moveable. In most cases the fan shroud mounts to the radiator which allows us to add the increase thickness to both the engine side and condenser side. This was not the case, and we had to design the unit with the additional 16 mm all towards the front of the car. By doing this we had to extend the condenser piping, and still make sure that it fit in the proper geometry of the original. This was very key because the condenser piping is attached to a bracket that is mounted on the core support.
For the automatic transmissions units, they use a 7 plate cooler. This type of cooler is new to the market ,and we are the first aftermarket manufacturer to be able to successfully develop it. This was especially a challenge considering how little space there was in the endtank to fit this large cooler.

As all you are aware, during the development of any high performance automotive product, there has to be a prototype test fitment. With parts that exceed the original size of the OEM unit test fitment is very key, especially when you are taking a unit made with plastic connections and hand fabricating it in metal (aluminum) and making it 33% thicker.

I'd like to thank Kyle@Stillen for personally helping me to test fit this unit. It wasn't easy, and he took his whole morning to assist me. Regarding the number of issues... there were 2 very minor issues that were easily fixed by our designers and engineers.
1) The overhang of the screws that attach the radiator and condenser was hitting the fan shroud. - This problem was easily corrected, and the design is now flush with no overhang.
2) The mounting points were off by less than 5 mm on each side - I must say this was a setback as this caused the unit to not be able to be installed in the Nissan Corporate BRE race car that we were test fitting the unit onto. This correct location of the mounting points were personally marked by Kyle and then reviewed and corrected by our CEO at CSF himself.

We asked Stillen to do the test fit for us because they are our premiere distributor for our Racing & High Performance division, and we have built a long relationship with them for more than 5+ years. However, there are other prestigious tuning companies, specifically specializing in the Z platform who have offered to help us with fitment and data testing (I'll let them disclose who they are if they feel the need to join the discussion). We should have very credible testing data from one of the most trusted names on the forum in the next couple weeks.

I'm sorry Kyle, but your statement about our lead times is incorrect. You don't become the #1 import car radiator manufacturer in the world by not being able to fix a slight design change to a blueprint and making a final product. "Test fit once" is our motto over at CSF. We went through the same challenges when developing the Titan radiator for Stillen, we had to take a shipment of 25 pieces back because they didn't fit. We learn from experience, and this will not be happening again.

There will be no more prototype modules made, and we have already began production on a limited run of units (both auto and manual). Our CEO has over 35 years of experience and is a mechanical and industrial engineer. He has decided to air freight the first production unit for final fitment before the rest of the shipment leaves our factory, but he has stated that this is only insurance because he is confident the units will fit. It is our risk so it should not be a concern or a talking point to this discussion.

With the amount of time, resources, R&D, and expense we have committed to this unit along with our revamped high performance line (JDM quality, B-tube, polish etc..), it has been pushed to the front of our production schedule and we are aiming for a target delivery date by mid August - Sept 1.

Well. we're gonna have just wait and see:tiphat:

This is my first post on this forum, so sorry to the administrator and readers for the length or if I haven't followed any rules. I'll be around to answer any questions that anyone may have.

I'd like to invite anyone who will be at the SEMA show to come visit our booth #24981 across from Honda. We'll have this unit on display and hopefully have some Formula Drift cars that we sponsor with our custom cooling units as well.

Good day Z community.

Ravi,

welcome to the forum! glad to see a manufacturer rep of this great looking product on here. I am looking forward to owning one of your units! If you want you can follow my build here: http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...hp-beyond.html

I feel your radiator will be the perfect compliment to help with my cooling needs on my 4.5L Motor.

Perhaps this is a question better suited to Ravi Dolwani and his technical staff (welcome to the forum, by the way). I'm also fairly new to the heat exchanger business, but there are somethings I'd like to understand, if nothing else then for my own curiosity.

I think of the radiator as I would a straighforward 2-circuit heat exchanger, crossflow. The air circuit is your 'cold' circuit, and the coolant running through the radiator is the 'hot' circuit. The radiator dissipates the heat stored in the fluid to the air. Correct? Pretty simple liquid-to-air heat exchanger.

Okay, so I'm on board with the increase in surface area, that's fine by me. I assume the 'B' part of the tube, is that done for structural support purposes, to give added safety to a large flat surface. I might be wrong on that, but I would hesitate to have a large flat surface without some sort of support. Then again, my background is in aerospace, so I may be over-exaggerating the details.

The real conundrum for me is that I am not understanding, from an engineering standpoint, the benefits of 'dual liquid laminar flow'. I take this to mean the both the air and liquid circuits have laminar flow on the heat transfer surface, correct? To me, I would consider having laminar flow (especially on the hot circuit) to provide a negative impact on the heat transfer. You have fluid that is, in a sense, 'adhered' to the heat transfer surface, so you are cooling a portion of the liquid, but the hot middle section of the liquid is never coming in contact with the heat transfer surface. I don't have an issue with the cold air circuit, which appears to be a straightforward plate-fin configuration.

In my experience, it's not altogether uncommon to see some sort of turbulating element in heat exchangers to increase the heat transfer capabilities of the unit. Long winded post short - I'm missing something, and I'd ask, what are the advantages to having a "dual fluid laminar flow"?

Again, my background is strictly in the aerospace industry, where requirements are probably far above what they are for automotive applications. If that's the reason why I am misunderstanding something, that's fine. But I hate being unable to reason out something for myself, and it doesn't help I can't physically see a unit, as that usually helps me in my comprehension. Any answers would be appreciated. Thanks!

The Cobb tells me that my fan comes on at 219 and goes off at 204 sitting still in trafic.

Welcome to the forum Ravi.:tiphat:

I don't like this ravi.

he is too business

tsk calling us 370Z.com community haha.

Phelan,

Your understanding of heat exchanger principles is very sound. You may have your background in areospace, but you have a good grasp of heat transfer fundamentals.

The "B-tube" design was used for both strength and function.

By breaking up the one larger tube into a "B-tube" (and thus 2 flow paths), the negative effect of the laminar flow is reduced. The total volume of the hot middle section of liquid is larger in a single layer tube and is reduced in the "B-tube" configuration.

You are correct that some sort of turbulator can increase the efficiency further. The industry used to use this technique many years ago, generally in larger size rounded tubes. With the current improved design of thin wall flat tubes the need for turbulated tubes has been eliminated for various reasons such as clogging problems.

I hope I was able to sufficiently answer your question.