CSF Radiator + Condenser, Upgrade

370Ztune · 06-21-2010, 07:23 PM

We should have testing data soon so it should help clear things up.

Also, here is some more information about CSF's B tube technology which helps in getting the most our of the radiator.

Unlike a regular oval shape "O" type radiator tube, CSF uses a specially engineered tube in a shape of a "B". These "B-tubes" are carefully formed and then brazed over the seam to seal. CSF is able to use thinner and lighter aluminum material (better cooling efficiency) because this design is actually stronger than normal "O" shape tubes that are welded.

The design (inlet in the middle of tube that is seam brazed) increases the heat transfer surface area of the tube by approximately 15% over regular tubes. You get the efficiency of 2 smaller tubes vs. 1 large tube within the same space criteria. With "B-tubes" you are able to get "dual liquid laminar flow."

The tubes are made from aircraft grade special clad aluminum and are intricately formed on our high precession 6-stage tube forming mill. No other aftermarket radiator manufacturer uses this technology. This technology raises the bar and sets the standard for high performance radiator cores.

-Mike Bratcher

Vegitto-kun · 06-21-2010, 07:33 PM

I like the thing but I still wont buy it. Untill my water seems to actually overheat this is a pointless mod.

But I cant wait to see the finished shiny thing

Kyle@STILLEN · 06-21-2010, 08:12 PM

I don't want to step on anybody's toes here but I know a lot about this particular product and I think I should jump in and comment.

First of all, I have actually done the prototype/test fitment for CSF. Some of you may remember at our open house event back in May we displayed this radiator for them. At that time, the unit had not been installed in a car. It wasn't until a few weeks ago when I personally did the first test fitment for CSF and found that this unit did not fit. There were a number of issues that CSF is in the process of correcting but in my opinion, a delivery date of August is not likely, and if any units are delivered in august, they would be untested. We have been working with CSF for many years now and are the exclusive distributor of their Nissan Titan radiator. Their radiators are very good quality and they work very well. When these have been tested and proven to fit, I would highly recommend them. However, I know CSF's manufacturing procedures and I know that they do not have a 370Z to do the test fitment on, which is why we did it for them...

CSF has a 90 day manufacturing timeline. We did the test fitment for them early this month...So that means any unit they ship in August would be a unit that has not gone through a final test fitment. In my opinion, they need to make one more prototype that fits correctly before they go into production with these units. Unless they decide to make their changes and trust that they're 100% perfect, manufacture 25-50 units then do another test fitment and risk that they got it right the second time.

Additionally, these radiators will not help with oil cooling. As Modshack mentioned, the thermostat controls the engine coolant temperature and it is completely unrelated to the engine oil. The radiator will help keep oil temperatures a little cooler in extreme conditions but not very much. With the extreme overheating conditions the engine oil sees on these cars there is no substitute for an external engine oil cooler.

CSF Inc. · 06-22-2010, 03:21 PM

Hello members of the370z.com. I'd like to introduce myself, I'm Ravi Dolwani, General Manager of the Racing & High Performance Division of CSF Inc.

Ive been monitoring the forum, especially this thread during the development of our "patented" radiator/condenser module for the 370Z/G37. There seems to be a lot of interest and a lot of questions on what this unit will achieve. Hopefully my response below will help clear up any questions, assumptions, and misunderstandings associated with our product.

1) The original radiator/condenser unit is 32mm thick. With the radiator only being 15mm thick. In a high performance application, such as the 370Z/G37, a 1/2 inch thick radiator core is not very sufficient in properly cooling the engine when driven in spirited driving conditions, especially in hot weather. The cooling efficiency of the radiator is compromised even more because it first has to pass through the condenser, and the airflow to the unit is less than ideal due to the front fascia design. Depending on outside temperatures, there is a high possibility that by time the air finally passes through the radiator it is already hot.

The cooling efficiency will be even more compromised as many drivers choose to SC/TC or add long tube intakes to these vehicles adding another barrier between the radiator and fresh cold air. In a SC/TC setup, adding an intercooler to the front of the car will only make the air that finally enters the radiator even hotter.

Our unit is 48mm thick with a 30 mm radiator core (2X the size), a 5mm air escape gap, and a 13 mm condenser. When we first started designing this unit we wanted to manufacturer both pieces separately for several reasons below:
A) Air escape gap - The 5mm space between the radiator and condenser allows hot air to leave the cooling system, while allowing the colder (denser) air to pass through to the radiator.
B) Creates more surface area contact between the air and front surface of the radiator core, promoting greater cooling efficiency.
C) Allows the condenser to be removed from the vehicle for even better airflow and lighter weight for track and race applications.

2) My second item to discuss is the development, testing, and fitment of our cooling module. Let me first start this topic by saying:
"This has been one of the most difficult and challenging cooling systems our company has ever developed."

This statement may not mean a lot to all the readers who have never heard about our company or have little knowledge of us. But...
CSF has been in business for over 45 years and we've sold over 35 million radiators in the U.S. We're OE suppliers and partners to companies around the world such as Mercedes Benz, John Deer, Isuzu, Griffen, Stillen and Bombardier...

With all that said, this vehicle has presented us challenges due to the space restrictions, especially with the addition of other manufacturers parts (intakes, oil coolers, intercoolers) to take into account when designing this unit. Also, the radiator is mounted to the bottom of the core support, and the fan shroud is not moveable. In most cases the fan shroud mounts to the radiator which allows us to add the increase thickness to both the engine side and condenser side. This was not the case, and we had to design the unit with the additional 16 mm all towards the front of the car. By doing this we had to extend the condenser piping, and still make sure that it fit in the proper geometry of the original. This was very key because the condenser piping is attached to a bracket that is mounted on the core support.
For the automatic transmissions units, they use a 7 plate cooler. This type of cooler is new to the market ,and we are the first aftermarket manufacturer to be able to successfully develop it. This was especially a challenge considering how little space there was in the endtank to fit this large cooler.

As all you are aware, during the development of any high performance automotive product, there has to be a prototype test fitment. With parts that exceed the original size of the OEM unit test fitment is very key, especially when you are taking a unit made with plastic connections and hand fabricating it in metal (aluminum) and making it 33% thicker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

It wasn't until a few weeks ago when I personally did the first test fitment for CSF and found that this unit did not fit. There were a number of issues that CSF is in the process of correcting

I'd like to thank Kyle@Stillen for personally helping me to test fit this unit. It wasn't easy, and he took his whole morning to assist me. Regarding the number of issues... there were 2 very minor issues that were easily fixed by our designers and engineers.
1) The overhang of the screws that attach the radiator and condenser was hitting the fan shroud. - This problem was easily corrected, and the design is now flush with no overhang.
2) The mounting points were off by less than 5 mm on each side - I must say this was a setback as this caused the unit to not be able to be installed in the Nissan Corporate BRE race car that we were test fitting the unit onto. This correct location of the mounting points were personally marked by Kyle and then reviewed and corrected by our CEO at CSF himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

I know CSF's manufacturing procedures and I know that they do not have a 370Z to do the test fitment on, which is why we did it for them...

We asked Stillen to do the test fit for us because they are our premiere distributor for our Racing & High Performance division, and we have built a long relationship with them for more than 5+ years. However, there are other prestigious tuning companies, specifically specializing in the Z platform who have offered to help us with fitment and data testing (I'll let them disclose who they are if they feel the need to join the discussion). We should have very credible testing data from one of the most trusted names on the forum in the next couple weeks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

CSF has a 90 day manufacturing timeline. We did the test fitment for them early this month...So that means any unit they ship in August would be a unit that has not gone through a final test fitment. In my opinion, they need to make one more prototype that fits correctly before they go into production with these units. Unless they decide to make their changes and trust that they're 100% perfect, manufacture 25-50 units then do another test fitment and risk that they got it right the second time.

I'm sorry Kyle, but your statement about our lead times is incorrect. You don't become the #1 import car radiator manufacturer in the world by not being able to fix a slight design change to a blueprint and making a final product. "Test fit once" is our motto over at CSF. We went through the same challenges when developing the Titan radiator for Stillen, we had to take a shipment of 25 pieces back because they didn't fit. We learn from experience, and this will not be happening again.

There will be no more prototype modules made, and we have already began production on a limited run of units (both auto and manual). Our CEO has over 35 years of experience and is a mechanical and industrial engineer. He has decided to air freight the first production unit for final fitment before the rest of the shipment leaves our factory, but he has stated that this is only insurance because he is confident the units will fit. It is our risk so it should not be a concern or a talking point to this discussion.

With the amount of time, resources, R&D, and expense we have committed to this unit along with our revamped high performance line (JDM quality, B-tube, polish etc..), it has been pushed to the front of our production schedule and we are aiming for a target delivery date by mid August - Sept 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

Additionally, these radiators will not help with oil cooling

Well. we're gonna have just wait and see

This is my first post on this forum, so sorry to the administrator and readers for the length or if I haven't followed any rules. I'll be around to answer any questions that anyone may have.

I'd like to invite anyone who will be at the SEMA show to come visit our booth #24981 across from Honda. We'll have this unit on display and hopefully have some Formula Drift cars that we sponsor with our custom cooling units as well.

Good day Z community.

bullitt5897 · 06-22-2010, 03:55 PM

Ravi,

welcome to the forum! glad to see a manufacturer rep of this great looking product on here. I am looking forward to owning one of your units! If you want you can follow my build here: GTM Performance Engineering VQ45VHR-Our Journey to The 1000 HP and Beyond

I feel your radiator will be the perfect compliment to help with my cooling needs on my 4.5L Motor.

phelan · 06-22-2010, 04:03 PM

Perhaps this is a question better suited to Ravi Dolwani and his technical staff (welcome to the forum, by the way). I'm also fairly new to the heat exchanger business, but there are somethings I'd like to understand, if nothing else then for my own curiosity.

I think of the radiator as I would a straighforward 2-circuit heat exchanger, crossflow. The air circuit is your 'cold' circuit, and the coolant running through the radiator is the 'hot' circuit. The radiator dissipates the heat stored in the fluid to the air. Correct? Pretty simple liquid-to-air heat exchanger.

Quote:

The design (inlet in the middle of tube that is seam brazed) increases the heat transfer surface area of the tube by approximately 15% over regular tubes. You get the efficiency of 2 smaller tubes vs. 1 large tube within the same space criteria. With "B-tubes" you are able to get "dual liquid laminar flow."

Okay, so I'm on board with the increase in surface area, that's fine by me. I assume the 'B' part of the tube, is that done for structural support purposes, to give added safety to a large flat surface. I might be wrong on that, but I would hesitate to have a large flat surface without some sort of support. Then again, my background is in aerospace, so I may be over-exaggerating the details.

The real conundrum for me is that I am not understanding, from an engineering standpoint, the benefits of 'dual liquid laminar flow'. I take this to mean the both the air and liquid circuits have laminar flow on the heat transfer surface, correct? To me, I would consider having laminar flow (especially on the hot circuit) to provide a negative impact on the heat transfer. You have fluid that is, in a sense, 'adhered' to the heat transfer surface, so you are cooling a portion of the liquid, but the hot middle section of the liquid is never coming in contact with the heat transfer surface. I don't have an issue with the cold air circuit, which appears to be a straightforward plate-fin configuration.

In my experience, it's not altogether uncommon to see some sort of turbulating element in heat exchangers to increase the heat transfer capabilities of the unit. Long winded post short - I'm missing something, and I'd ask, what are the advantages to having a "dual fluid laminar flow"?

Again, my background is strictly in the aerospace industry, where requirements are probably far above what they are for automotive applications. If that's the reason why I am misunderstanding something, that's fine. But I hate being unable to reason out something for myself, and it doesn't help I can't physically see a unit, as that usually helps me in my comprehension. Any answers would be appreciated. Thanks!

Z eliminator · 06-22-2010, 04:45 PM

The Cobb tells me that my fan comes on at 219 and goes off at 204 sitting still in trafic.

Valentino · 06-22-2010, 06:21 PM

Welcome to the forum Ravi.

Vegitto-kun · 06-22-2010, 06:25 PM

I don't like this ravi.

he is too business

tsk calling us 370Z.com community haha.

CSF Inc. · 06-25-2010, 02:03 PM

Phelan,

Your understanding of heat exchanger principles is very sound. You may have your background in areospace, but you have a good grasp of heat transfer fundamentals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phelan

I assume the 'B' part of the tube, is that done for structural support purposes, to give added safety to a large flat surface. I might be wrong on that, but I would hesitate to have a large flat surface without some sort of support.

The "B-tube" design was used for both strength and function.

By breaking up the one larger tube into a "B-tube" (and thus 2 flow paths), the negative effect of the laminar flow is reduced. The total volume of the hot middle section of liquid is larger in a single layer tube and is reduced in the "B-tube" configuration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phelan

In my experience, it's not altogether uncommon to see some sort of turbulating element in heat exchangers to increase the heat transfer capabilities of the unit.

You are correct that some sort of turbulator can increase the efficiency further. The industry used to use this technique many years ago, generally in larger size rounded tubes. With the current improved design of thin wall flat tubes the need for turbulated tubes has been eliminated for various reasons such as clogging problems.

I hope I was able to sufficiently answer your question.

Nikon FM · 06-26-2010, 11:48 AM

General principles do not agree with significant oil temp reduction but I like data so………...I'm in for data results on oil temp affects. If this helps track environment oil temps by +5% I'm in.

CSF Inc. · 08-20-2010, 08:15 PM

We have an update on these units!! We've experienced some delays with manufacturing these units due to all the different components, but the first one in the world has been installed into GTM's 1000 HP "White Dragon" Thanks to Sam for helping CSF out with the install.
I've included the picture that I took today of the unit installed at GTM.

I've also included the results from our wind tunnel (Simplified: Horizontal axis = air flow / Vertical axis = heat rejection). As you can see the cooling efficiency of our units increases as air flow increase (similar to speed of vehicle). I'm working with my engineers and design team to get graphs and charts that are more easily understandable for marketing purposes, but I thought I'd share the data with you all.

Sam has also rigged up another Z with temperature probes to get us real readouts to compare to stock oe units. These results should be completed by the beginning of September when the limited supply of these units are expected to have arrived from our factory!

Have a good weekend everybody. CSF will be at Formula Drift round 5 in Vegas cheering on our sponsored drivers (Joon Maeng (Bergenholtz/Full Tilt Poker Rx-8, and Michael Essa's Custom M5 engine 3 seriesR). If you are there, come say hi. I'll be the guy in the CSF shirt.

open to any questions

Thank you

bullitt5897 · 08-20-2010, 09:31 PM

Sweet Ravi the radiator looks sweet!!!! Can't wait to get to drive the beast!

1slow370 · 08-21-2010, 03:22 AM

bullit you should have them throw a fan on your oil cooler, you know insurance

Nikon FM · 08-22-2010, 01:08 AM

The chart I'm assuming is in regards to water? There has been a few posts regarding the overall affects on oil temperatures. Will you get oil temp data as well with your testing of the radiator?

Thanks!

06-21-2010, 07:23 PM	#31 (permalink)
370Ztune The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,477 Drives: Z34 370Z Rep Power: 46	We should have testing data soon so it should help clear things up. Also, here is some more information about CSF's B tube technology which helps in getting the most our of the radiator. Unlike a regular oval shape "O" type radiator tube, CSF uses a specially engineered tube in a shape of a "B". These "B-tubes" are carefully formed and then brazed over the seam to seal. CSF is able to use thinner and lighter aluminum material (better cooling efficiency) because this design is actually stronger than normal "O" shape tubes that are welded. The design (inlet in the middle of tube that is seam brazed) increases the heat transfer surface area of the tube by approximately 15% over regular tubes. You get the efficiency of 2 smaller tubes vs. 1 large tube within the same space criteria. With "B-tubes" you are able to get "dual liquid laminar flow." The tubes are made from aircraft grade special clad aluminum and are intricately formed on our high precession 6-stage tube forming mill. No other aftermarket radiator manufacturer uses this technology. This technology raises the bar and sets the standard for high performance radiator cores. -Mike Bratcher __________________ The Real JDM Facebook Bulletproof Instagram

06-22-2010, 03:55 PM	#35 (permalink)
bullitt5897 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North GA Posts: 6,831 Drives: Twin Turbo Z34 Rep Power: 3682	Ravi, welcome to the forum! glad to see a manufacturer rep of this great looking product on here. I am looking forward to owning one of your units! If you want you can follow my build here: GTM Performance Engineering VQ45VHR-Our Journey to The 1000 HP and Beyond I feel your radiator will be the perfect compliment to help with my cooling needs on my 4.5L Motor. __________________ *Shop Cars: 2013 318whp Nismo VspecII 370z SOLD, 2009 1000hp+ 93oct 4.0L TT 370z Fast Intentions STAGE 4 #054*

06-22-2010, 04:45 PM	#37 (permalink)
Z eliminator A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 1,659 Drives: 370 Z 7AT Sports Rep Power: 19	The Cobb tells me that my fan comes on at 219 and goes off at 204 sitting still in trafic. __________________ 12.343 @114.14 . 4.5 stroker motor is now being built. Dec 1 2015.

06-22-2010, 06:21 PM	#38 (permalink)
Valentino Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: RaceTrack Posts: 349 Drives: SOLD 09,370z,M6 Rep Power: 305	Welcome to the forum Ravi. __________________ Lou Fusz Nissan \| KW V3 \| SPL rear camber and toe bolt \| OS Giken LSD \| Nismo Diff cover \| Engine Oil cooler \| F.I. TDX Cat Back 18" Resonators \| F.I. Resonated Test Pipes \| Injen cold air intake \| COBB AccessPORT \| JWT Clutch Flywheel \|

06-26-2010, 11:48 AM	#41 (permalink)
Nikon FM Track Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Snoqualmie WA Posts: 973 Drives: 03 996TT Porsche Rep Power: 606	General principles do not agree with significant oil temp reduction but I like data so………...I'm in for data results on oil temp affects. If this helps track environment oil temps by +5% I'm in. __________________ Buddy Revell: "One man's sooner is another man's later"

06-21-2010, 07:33 PM	#32 (permalink)
Vegitto-kun A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Posts: 2,011 Drives: 09 370Z Rep Power: 262	I like the thing but I still wont buy it. Untill my water seems to actually overheat this is a pointless mod. But I cant wait to see the finished shiny thing

06-21-2010, 08:12 PM	#33 (permalink)
Kyle@STILLEN The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Newport Beach Posts: 626 Drives: Toyota Tundra Rep Power: 306	I don't want to step on anybody's toes here but I know a lot about this particular product and I think I should jump in and comment. First of all, I have actually done the prototype/test fitment for CSF. Some of you may remember at our open house event back in May we displayed this radiator for them. At that time, the unit had not been installed in a car. It wasn't until a few weeks ago when I personally did the first test fitment for CSF and found that this unit did not fit. There were a number of issues that CSF is in the process of correcting but in my opinion, a delivery date of August is not likely, and if any units are delivered in august, they would be untested. We have been working with CSF for many years now and are the exclusive distributor of their Nissan Titan radiator. Their radiators are very good quality and they work very well. When these have been tested and proven to fit, I would highly recommend them. However, I know CSF's manufacturing procedures and I know that they do not have a 370Z to do the test fitment on, which is why we did it for them... CSF has a 90 day manufacturing timeline. We did the test fitment for them early this month...So that means any unit they ship in August would be a unit that has not gone through a final test fitment. In my opinion, they need to make one more prototype that fits correctly before they go into production with these units. Unless they decide to make their changes and trust that they're 100% perfect, manufacture 25-50 units then do another test fitment and risk that they got it right the second time. Additionally, these radiators will not help with oil cooling. As Modshack mentioned, the thermostat controls the engine coolant temperature and it is completely unrelated to the engine oil. The radiator will help keep oil temperatures a little cooler in extreme conditions but not very much. With the extreme overheating conditions the engine oil sees on these cars there is no substitute for an external engine oil cooler.

06-22-2010, 06:25 PM	#39 (permalink)
Vegitto-kun A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Posts: 2,011 Drives: 09 370Z Rep Power: 262	I don't like this ravi. he is too business tsk calling us 370Z.com community haha.

08-20-2010, 09:31 PM	#43 (permalink)
bullitt5897 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North GA Posts: 6,831 Drives: Twin Turbo Z34 Rep Power: 3682	Sweet Ravi the radiator looks sweet!!!! Can't wait to get to drive the beast! __________________ *Shop Cars: 2013 318whp Nismo VspecII 370z SOLD, 2009 1000hp+ 93oct 4.0L TT 370z Fast Intentions STAGE 4 #054*

08-21-2010, 03:22 AM	#44 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	bullit you should have them throw a fan on your oil cooler, you know insurance __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

08-22-2010, 01:08 AM	#45 (permalink)
Nikon FM Track Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Snoqualmie WA Posts: 973 Drives: 03 996TT Porsche Rep Power: 606	The chart I'm assuming is in regards to water? There has been a few posts regarding the overall affects on oil temperatures. Will you get oil temp data as well with your testing of the radiator? Thanks! __________________ Buddy Revell: "One man's sooner is another man's later"

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