Confirmed Cam Phaser Death? P0011

radensb

Pulled a P0011 code and went through the possible issues. It did get low on oil for a short time, which I am still trying to figure out as the engine does not leak, I have never seen blow by in exhaust, and I had an oil change ~3K miles ago. Engine has ~77K miles. Based on the following, I am leaning to phasers.....

• Engine starts up fine and runs smooth.
• Cleared codes

  -P0011 pops up as pending code within a minute or so and engine wont rev over 3500K RPM after that

  -When P0011 triggers CEL engine wont rev over 2500RPM

I have done the following:

• Oil Pressure Check

  -Idle@180F: 15PSI, 2K@180F: 58PSI

  -Idle is on the low side but still in spec

  -No pressure bounce. Stable at idle pressure and smoothly increases with RPM

• Oil change (Mobile1 with Mobile1 filter)

  -Repeated oil pressure checks and they are identical

• Checked bank 1 VVT solenoid

  -Applied 12V and can hear it activate

• Checked camshaft and intake timing signals

  -Leveraged info from FSM and THIS POST

I do see all the signals, so the sensors are working, however, I do not see the timing relationship indicated in the post and FSM.

CH1 (Yellow) Bank 1 intake CAM phaser
CH2 (Purple) Bank 2 intake CAM phaser
Ch3 (Blue) Crankshaft sensor

FSM Entry:


Cold Engine: Full sequence


Warm Engine: Full sequence (longer pulses due to lower idle speed, but no relational timing change to cold engine)



Zoom in on first pulse: Timing of B1 with respect to crank (~9.0ms delay, should be 0?)


Zoom in on first pulse: Timing of B2 with respect to crank (~6.0ms delay, should be 0?)


Zoom in on first pulse: Timing of B1 with respect to B2 (~3.0ms delay, should be 0?)


There are defiantly differences in the sensor timing and the FSM. Its odd that I am only getting a P0011 and not P0021 or other codes....

I am using needle insulation piercing taps to probe these signals at the ECU connectors. I still have it all connected up so if there are any other captures you think may be useful, I can get them easily!

Thoughts??
THANKS!

SG4247

Looks to me like both the cams are timed to each other correctly. To me that rules out phasers.

But both cams are not timed to the crank properly. It is off a little.

How can this be? Maybe main timing chain has stretch. Or the main chain tensioner is not taking up the chain slack, due to low oil pressure. At 50k miles my main chain and crank gear had significant wear. My car has been driven extremely hard, I could hear the chain noise on start up for a few seconds until oil pressure made the tensioner take up slack. I replaced the chain, gear, tensioner and galley gaskets and now that noise is gone. I never had any codes, just noise.

Has the front cover ever been off? Galley gaskets and seals replaced?

__________________
NA on E85 - 12.402 @ 112 mph
100 shot E85 - 11.589 @ 117 mph
JWT C2 cams rev Base Circle & Titan Valves

radensb

Thanks for the reply.

Do the cams look like they are timed correctly relative to each other?

According to the FSM image I posted, the first falling edge of the Bank 1 double pulse should be in sync with the first falling edge of the Bank 2 single pulse and both of those falling edges should be in sync with the first falling edge of the crank pulse series. My timing shows a 3ms delay in Bank 1 relative to Bank 2.

In the post I linked to, my timing looks exactly like this image:


I makes me wonder if this is actually wrong. How did mine fail with the exact same timing problem? Could the FSM be incorrect, or not representative of relative timing? That seems hard to believe too!

I would love it to not be the phasers. I never heard any noise and the car ran perfect on my way home from work one night, then hit limp mode a few days later a mile down the road from my home after sitting for a few days. A mechanical timing malfunction would explain the scope shots (if the FSM is to be believed), but how??

To my knowledge, the engine has never been opened up. I got the car in 2014 with 25K miles and put ~50K miles on it since then. All daily driving with nothing too aggressive. Gallery gaskets were the first thing I came across and being an '09, its highly possible they need to be addressed. However, my oil pressure is still within spec.

One thing that I finally did was replace the battery. It was struggling and needed a jump if I didn't run the car for a few days. I replaced it tonight and fired it up to see if anything was different. I got a P0340 code for the first time. I cleared the codes and it hasn't come back yet. Not sure how a battery could influence that or if it was just coincidence? I also noticed that even after clearing the codes, I cannot rev the engine past 4500RPM. Im not sure of this is related to the timing or if the car is in a "re-learn" mode since the battery was removed and that is limiting it.

Re-reading the content in THIS P0340 POST from @Knio, it seems like the exact issue I have with the same timing!

SG4247

Sorry, my bad.

Actually, it looks like Bank 1 (yellow line top graphs and blue line bottom graph) is very late.

Then bank 2 is a little late. Maybe not enough to matter.

So, you’re just gonna pull the front cover and check the timing marks, chains tensioners and possibly swap on good intake cam phasers. Definitely want to fix the galley gaskets.

There are scarf cut seals on the cam covers, that supply oil to the phasers, you could easily pop those out and inspect them.

You can also see if the tone wheel on each phaser is clocked to the bolts on the front of the phaser correctly. I have heard that they can move (although this seems unlikely).

I had two spare phasers I just sold. The buyer swapped them on, and still had the same code. His motor was super high mileage and still had original galley gaskets, chains and tensioners.

__________________
NA on E85 - 12.402 @ 112 mph
100 shot E85 - 11.589 @ 117 mph
JWT C2 cams rev Base Circle & Titan Valves

radensb

Its all good - thanks for the feedback! Can you go into more detail on the scarf cut seals on the cam covers that can be inspected?

I was considering removing the cam covers to inspect the tone wheels, but the passenger side one seems to be obstructed by the belt tensioner. Perhaps there is a way to inspect through the sensor hole with a bore scope? Apparently the wheels can lose their position relative to the phaser timing marks and throw codes. If this is the case, my guess is that bank 2 is on the edge of acceptability relative to the crank, but bank 1 is too far out and that is why I only get the P0011 code. The good news is that the engine would still be mechanically in time and not at risk of killing itself. Its being lied to by the tone wheel. Otherwise, something is locked up and the cams are actually out of time.

I have been coming to the realization that I need to break it down and replace the phasers as well as all the other stuff behind the timing cover. Being only 77K miles, the timing chains are probably fine, but since it ran on low oil, Ill probably replace them and the guides anyway with a kit. EPS gallery gaskets for sure and water pump because - why not.

SG4247

See the attached images..

There is an o-ring on the solenoid as well.

Attached Images

	IMG_6557.jpg (73.9 KB, 4 views)
	IMG_6559.jpg (71.9 KB, 4 views)
	IMG_6558.jpg (70.1 KB, 4 views)

__________________
NA on E85 - 12.402 @ 112 mph
100 shot E85 - 11.589 @ 117 mph
JWT C2 cams rev Base Circle & Titan Valves

SG4247

Keep us updated on your findings, I’m interested in the details of this issue.

A solenoid failure, could be the cause as well.

I have also “heard” that the oil filter screens in the heads, if blocked by contamination, can also cause this issue.

__________________
NA on E85 - 12.402 @ 112 mph
100 shot E85 - 11.589 @ 117 mph
JWT C2 cams rev Base Circle & Titan Valves

radensb

Yes, I will update as I go.

I made sure to test the solenoid on the affected bank and it operates as the FSM says. Also, since I am seeing timing issues with the engine at idle (before VVT should even kick in), I think I can safely conclude that the phasers (either the tone wheel orientation or them mechanically) are the root problem.

Thanks for pointing out the intake cam timing seal - a set of 6 is included in the timing cover gasket kit! Below is a list of the thing I am planning on buying:

• EPS Gallery Gasket Kit
• Water pump
• Thermostat
• Timing cover gasket kit
• Crank sprocket
• Timing chain kit (main chain, exhaust cam chains, main chain tensioner, all 3 chain guides)
• Crank bolt
• L/R Phaser sprockets
• Nissan Gasket Maker

Am I missing anything?

SG4247

Just a front crankshaft seal and tools to install it.

__________________
NA on E85 - 12.402 @ 112 mph
100 shot E85 - 11.589 @ 117 mph
JWT C2 cams rev Base Circle & Titan Valves

radensb

Well, this blows some of my previous ideas out of the water. Looks like the intake phasers are operational after all! I noticed that when I start the car and watch the scope, the timing of both cam phasers adjusts really close to what the FSM image shows in my original post. The left and right phasers sync with eachother like they should and move to a slightly retarded position relative to the crank. Then, shortly after, they move to the positions I captured in the original post.



I make this video of the scope.

This means that the phasers are not seized and are being controlled by the VVT solenoids. On one run, it stayed in the retarded position for several minutes and I notice misfires while in this state. Then it advanced the timing and the misses went away.

SG4247

So, why would the phasers not be operating as expected?

They are a mechanical system operated by oil pressure, which is controlled by electronic devices, driven by the programming in the ECU, right? Malfunctions in any of those system, could be the problem.

Choose a system to test, and test it the best that you can, then move on to the next system.
I think that’s pretty much what your doing or have done.

If all that does not point to a cause, then physical mechanical inspection is needed.

It’s a complex problem, and you hate to just blindly throw parts and labor at it.

I feel your pain. Hang in there!

__________________
NA on E85 - 12.402 @ 112 mph
100 shot E85 - 11.589 @ 117 mph
JWT C2 cams rev Base Circle & Titan Valves

radensb

I think that's essentially where I'm at. I just put in new spark plugs cuz they have never been replaced to see if that has any effect on the P0300.
It did not.

However, The behavior is still consistent as before so I know that the plugs were not contributing. When I started the engine, it fired right up and ran super smooth. I let it run for several minutes until it warmed up and dropped idle to ~650RMP. Kept checking for codes but none ever popped up. It wasn't until I let the engine warm up and restarted it so that the phasers move to the position (as shown in my last post in the video) did the engine start to feel a bit rough. The roughness corresponded to the phaser adjustment, then smoothed back out when they went back and P0011 and P0300 popped up. To me, this indicates:

• The ECU is commanding the VVT, but the system isn't doing what is expected and things get rough, so it adjusts and throws the corresponding codes.
• The random misfire is related to the timing adjustments as P0300 was not popping up during the warmup
  This means that the plugs and coil packs are good. Otherwise, P0300 would have come up during warmup
• Visual inspection is the next step - time to order parts and crack into the timing cover.

The way I am rationalizing this (because I have no other choice...) is that the gallery gaskets are highly suspect being an early '09 and probably need to be addressed anyway. With that justification, its really not much of a leap to justify the additional work and money to replace the phasers an timing chain/components too and leave no stone unturned under there. I can also contribute extra data points to the phaser discussions with my results.