Can you get to 400 without turbo or super-charger

[Q_USAF]

Can you get the 370 up to 400 hp or as close as possible. Without being turboed or super-charged. Please list out the parts or modifications if possible.

[MightyBobo]

Originally Posted by Q_USAF

Can you get the 370 up to 400 hp or as close as possible. Without being turboed or super-charged. Please list out the parts or modifications if possible.

Im just guessing here since Im a bit new to the VQ world (but quite knowledgeable in the LSX SBC world)...but you'd probably need...more than likely, the best of the best bolt-ons, and some internals for this. Heads, headers-back, a DECENT intake, custom-ground cams and upgraded valvetrain to match, maybe swap your bottom end for something a bit higher in compression. Cant forget your fuel system (pump/injectors), and a tune to go with it.

The price would be quite high, more than likely.

On the other hand, going boosted the safe (and "correct", to many) way would be to swap to a nice forged bottom end, upgrade your fuel system, and get a nice intercooled turbo/supercharger kit. That'd probably last a long time, assuming its all installed correctly. Oh yeah, and beef up that tranny and potentially your rear end if you plan on launching it ever...

This kind of work is common place in the SBC world, and people can, now-a-days, fairly easily put down close to 500 to the wheels in their N/A F-bodies and C5 Vettes for minimal cost. But with these VQ motors, finding aftermarket manufacturers for a lot of the parts would probably be quite difficult, and/or prone to raping your wallet of funds lol.

[kannibul]

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

Im just guessing here since Im a bit new to the VQ world (but quite knowledgeable in the LSX SBC world)...but you'd probably need...more than likely, the best of the best bolt-ons, and some internals for this. Heads, headers-back, a DECENT intake, custom-ground cams and upgraded valvetrain to match, maybe swap your bottom end for something a bit higher in compression. Cant forget your fuel system (pump/injectors), and a tune to go with it.

The price would be quite high, more than likely.

On the other hand, going boosted the safe (and "correct", to many) way would be to swap to a nice forged bottom end, upgrade your fuel system, and get a nice intercooled turbo/supercharger kit. That'd probably last a long time, assuming its all installed correctly. Oh yeah, and beef up that tranny and potentially your rear end if you plan on launching it ever...

This kind of work is common place in the SBC world, and people can, now-a-days, fairly easily put down close to 500 to the wheels in their N/A F-bodies and C5 Vettes for minimal cost. But with these VQ motors, finding aftermarket manufacturers for a lot of the parts would probably be quite difficult, and/or prone to raping your wallet of funds lol.

Technically speaking, the engine in the 370z doesn't have a camshaft. It does have an eccentric shaft.

[MightyBobo]

Originally Posted by kannibul

Technically speaking, the engine in the 370z doesn't have a camshaft. It does have an eccentric shaft.

That post was made well before I even owned my 370 heh - I didn't even realize the VVEL system was in it, much less how it worked at the time.

None the less, you are correct

[tolnep]

drop in 12.5 to 13:1 compression pistons...

have the heads stage III or stage IV prepped..

custom high lift cams, springs retainers to handle..

10,000 rpm or thereabouts.

balance the crap out of the motor..

i assume custom tune/standalone.. and of course a hand built exhaust from the exhaust ports back..

run race gas (you can get 100 octane no-lead) or 105 octane e85 (adjust fuel lines, pumps and injectors as neded)..

the thing is its about the amount of combustible energy you can get into the thing in a specific period of time, since you dont go turbo or supercharged, to get the requisite combustible materials into the motor in the same amount of time, you gotta spin that sucker faster..

add a low gear ring and pinion to make it work on the street..

and about he small blocks having more stuff available cheaper.. they've been around more than 50 years.. 50 YEARS.. and have simply evolved. there is a tremendous market for parts and thats why there's so much more..

if i was gonna look for more power out of the 370.. first hunt would be for a super charger. cosworth came out for one for the miata.. i think its about 5k, i would assume eventually similar products we bel available for the Z, thats probably the easiest and safest way to get your 'instant on' powa....

[CBRich]

Originally Posted by tolnep

custom high lift cams, springs retainers to handle..

Best of luck with that.

And on topic I've seen B16 Honda engines make 200 N/A whp but it took so much money and tuning it was stupid. Would have been cheaper and made more power with FI. I think the same will hold true near the 400 whp range for the Z.

[G&M Performance]

Why do you want to go N/A when you can spend half of the money and get more power with boosting? I bet you have a lot of mob money...

[MightyBobo]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman370z

Why do you want to go N/A when you can spend half of the money and get more power with boosting? I bet you have a lot of mob money...

I question "half the money", unless you're piecing together, and installing the kit yourself. Tack on another $400+ for a chassis dyno tune.

[Q_USAF]

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

I question "half the money", unless you're piecing together, and installing the kit yourself. Tack on another $400+ for a chassis dyno tune.

Thanks, BTW would you estimate the cost to be of your suggestions...Just round about

[MightyBobo]

Originally Posted by Q_USAF

Thanks, BTW would you estimate the cost to be of your suggestions...Just round about

Well, I guess a good way to guestimate would be to take what it costs to do it on my Camaro and double it just about haha.

Longtubes + full exhaust - $1800-2000
Heads - god I dont even want to guess. $2000-3000 I'd say
Cams - $1000-1200 maybe?
Intake - $400-500
Valve springs - Looks like $250ish
Some nice lightweight valves would be on my mod list too, but I cant seem to find a price for them. Probably quite a bit.
Bottom Ends can vary in price - Im going to guess $1500 here or so. Factor in needing to send it out to be balanced, and installed by a professional. Another $500 or so.
Fuel System - $500 for injectors it seems, $155 for a walbro pump, plus another $400ish for a tune.



So using my medium prices, around $9000 or so to make high 300's to the wheels. Some people would shy you away from this and simply say go boosted. I say, you do all this, and all of these would support a boosted setup. Slap the turbo kit on and nothing else, retune, and shoot for the moon . Forged bottom end + boosted setup w/ a fuel system to support it? Delicious...

[RCZ]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman370z

Why do you want to go N/A when you can spend half of the money and get more power with boosting? I bet you have a lot of mob money...

I'm trying to get as much HP N/A as well. I would like to stay away from FI this time around just like Q_USAF. I don't know if it is for the same reasons, but at least for me it comes down to feel, power delivery and convenience. I love turbo cars, but the feeling of urgency and wanting to rev from a naturally aspirated engine is also very rewarding. The other thing is that there are a lot of "bugs" that always have to be worked out with turbo cars. They are a lot more finicky and more moving parts means more can go wrong.

Not to mention it is NOT going to be cheaper...you can't just snap on a turbo and call it a day. Injectors, fuel delivery, exhaust system, intakes, turbos, wastegates, labor, dyno tuning, probably internals, gauges, BOV's, intercooler, etc. That's also assuming that everything is going to go well the first time you install everything, but you should figure to tack on another $1000 for unexpected bs. It adds up way faster than you think. Then you begin to iron out the bugs. Engine overheating, melted vacuum lines here, engine has a hiccup around 3400RPM there, then you've changed so many things that you can't figure out why the ecu is cutting fuel at 4500RPM, and the damn wastegates just aren't opening because someone hooked them vac lines upside down..but you didnt figure that out till after your first dyno run which your car boosted to 37psi and almost blew up cause the wastegate never opened. Now you're so deep that you don't even want to drive the car because it might blow up.

Now back to the topic...

I honestly don't think we are going to be able to hit 400 without making the car unstreetable. If I can get 350RWHP out of this car in NA form, I will have reached my goals. The problem is that we don't really know what power we are making because all dynos read differently. Getting 400hp doesn't mean anything these days. I think we have to start talking in percentages now.

For example... lets borrow Stillen's baseline run dyno here with their exhaust.



They got a 6.5% increase over stock. To make "300WHP" on their dyno they need a 9% gain. To make "400whp" they need 45.4% gain.




We should really start measuring power gains in percentage over baseline run...there is a limited number of dynos so I think it might be helpful if I start a thread for baseline pulls for each type. What do you guys think? Based on those baseline runs we can make a table of how each dyno compares to the other. When we have a "multiplier" table for each dyno, then we can set 1 designated dyno as the "overall benchmark dyno" that everyone compares to. That is the only way to have numbers that mean anything...if everyone is on the same "page".

I can start a chart and then eventually get someone with programming skills to make us a nice little calculator. I understand there are different settings that can be used on each dyno that will affect the readings, however this is the closest thing we can get.

Anyone else would like this?

[Q_USAF]

Originally Posted by RCZ

I'm trying to get as much HP N/A as well. I would like to stay away from FI this time around just like Q_USAF. I don't know if it is for the same reasons, but at least for me it comes down to feel, power delivery and convenience. I love turbo cars, but the feeling of urgency and wanting to rev from a naturally aspirated engine is also very rewarding. The other thing is that there are a lot of "bugs" that always have to be worked out with turbo cars. They are a lot more finicky and more moving parts means more can go wrong.

Not to mention it is NOT going to be cheaper...you can't just snap on a turbo and call it a day. Injectors, fuel delivery, exhaust system, intakes, turbos, wastegates, labor, dyno tuning, probably internals, gauges, BOV's, intercooler, etc. That's also assuming that everything is going to go well the first time you install everything, but you should figure to tack on another $1000 for unexpected bs. It adds up way faster than you think. Then you begin to iron out the bugs. Engine overheating, melted vacuum lines here, engine has a hiccup around 3400RPM there, then you've changed so many things that you can't figure out why the ecu is cutting fuel at 4500RPM, and the damn wastegates just aren't opening because someone hooked them vac lines upside down..but you didnt figure that out till after your first dyno run which your car boosted to 37psi and almost blew up cause the wastegate never opened. Now you're so deep that you don't even want to drive the car because it might blow up.

Now back to the topic...

I honestly don't think we are going to be able to hit 400 without making the car unstreetable. If I can get 350RWHP out of this car in NA form, I will have reached my goals. The problem is that we don't really know what power we are making because all dynos read differently. Getting 400hp doesn't mean anything these days. I think we have to start talking in percentages now.

For example... lets borrow Stillen's baseline run dyno here with their exhaust.



They got a 6.5% increase over stock. To make "300WHP" on their dyno they need a 9% gain. To make "400whp" they need 45.4% gain.




We should really start measuring power gains in percentage over baseline run...there is a limited number of dynos so I think it might be helpful if I start a thread for baseline pulls for each type. What do you guys think? Based on those baseline runs we can make a table of how each dyno compares to the other. When we have a "multiplier" table for each dyno, then we can set 1 designated dyno as the "overall benchmark dyno" that everyone compares to. That is the only way to have numbers that mean anything...if everyone is on the same "page".

I can start a chart and then eventually get someone with programming skills to make us a nice little calculator. I understand there are different settings that can be used on each dyno that will affect the readings, however this is the closest thing we can get.

Anyone else would like this?

I like your thought process...

[G&M Performance]

Originally Posted by RCZ

I'm trying to get as much HP N/A as well. I would like to stay away from FI this time around just like Q_USAF. I don't know if it is for the same reasons, but at least for me it comes down to feel, power delivery and convenience. I love turbo cars, but the feeling of urgency and wanting to rev from a naturally aspirated engine is also very rewarding. The other thing is that there are a lot of "bugs" that always have to be worked out with turbo cars. They are a lot more finicky and more moving parts means more can go wrong.

Not to mention it is NOT going to be cheaper...you can't just snap on a turbo and call it a day. Injectors, fuel delivery, exhaust system, intakes, turbos, wastegates, labor, dyno tuning, probably internals, gauges, BOV's, intercooler, etc. That's also assuming that everything is going to go well the first time you install everything, but you should figure to tack on another $1000 for unexpected bs. It adds up way faster than you think. Then you begin to iron out the bugs. Engine overheating, melted vacuum lines here, engine has a hiccup around 3400RPM there, then you've changed so many things that you can't figure out why the ecu is cutting fuel at 4500RPM, and the damn wastegates just aren't opening because someone hooked them vac lines upside down..but you didnt figure that out till after your first dyno run which your car boosted to 37psi and almost blew up cause the wastegate never opened. Now you're so deep that you don't even want to drive the car because it might blow up.

Now back to the topic...

I honestly don't think we are going to be able to hit 400 without making the car unstreetable. If I can get 350RWHP out of this car in NA form, I will have reached my goals. The problem is that we don't really know what power we are making because all dynos read differently. Getting 400hp doesn't mean anything these days. I think we have to start talking in percentages now.

For example... lets borrow Stillen's baseline run dyno here with their exhaust.



They got a 6.5% increase over stock. To make "300WHP" on their dyno they need a 9% gain. To make "400whp" they need 45.4% gain.




We should really start measuring power gains in percentage over baseline run...there is a limited number of dynos so I think it might be helpful if I start a thread for baseline pulls for each type. What do you guys think? Based on those baseline runs we can make a table of how each dyno compares to the other. When we have a "multiplier" table for each dyno, then we can set 1 designated dyno as the "overall benchmark dyno" that everyone compares to. That is the only way to have numbers that mean anything...if everyone is on the same "page".

I can start a chart and then eventually get someone with programming skills to make us a nice little calculator. I understand there are different settings that can be used on each dyno that will affect the readings, however this is the closest thing we can get.

Anyone else would like this?

Actually, with the experience I've had building cars for 14 years, it is just as easy as snapping on a turbo as long as you have all of the supporting modifications. I don't really have the time to go into detail about all of the costs associated with going N/A, but it is not cheap. If done right, you can piece together, fab, and install a turbo system for cheaper than a full N/A setup. Tuning knowledge is extremely important though, so turbocharging a factory N/A car is not for rookies. Then again, as long as there is a reputable tuning shop in your area, you should be golden.

The way I see it is if you're going to break your warranty, you might as well do it for more power.

Oh and as far as longevity goes, low boost is your best friend. At 5-6 psi, your car will last longer than you will own it.

Anyway, I'm done. It's all in what you want to do and there is no right or wrong. Just opinions. I just hate how some of you folks blast people about things and try to make them feel like a fool. Hell, it is almost as bad as my350z at times.

[370zmobbber]

Originally Posted by RCZ

I'm trying to get as much HP N/A as well. I would like to stay away from FI this time around just like Q_USAF. I don't know if it is for the same reasons, but at least for me it comes down to feel, power delivery and convenience. I love turbo cars, but the feeling of urgency and wanting to rev from a naturally aspirated engine is also very rewarding. The other thing is that there are a lot of "bugs" that always have to be worked out with turbo cars. They are a lot more finicky and more moving parts means more can go wrong.

Not to mention it is NOT going to be cheaper...you can't just snap on a turbo and call it a day. Injectors, fuel delivery, exhaust system, intakes, turbos, wastegates, labor, dyno tuning, probably internals, gauges, BOV's, intercooler, etc. That's also assuming that everything is going to go well the first time you install everything, but you should figure to tack on another $1000 for unexpected bs. It adds up way faster than you think. Then you begin to iron out the bugs. Engine overheating, melted vacuum lines here, engine has a hiccup around 3400RPM there, then you've changed so many things that you can't figure out why the ecu is cutting fuel at 4500RPM, and the damn wastegates just aren't opening because someone hooked them vac lines upside down..but you didnt figure that out till after your first dyno run which your car boosted to 37psi and almost blew up cause the wastegate never opened. Now you're so deep that you don't even want to drive the car because it might blow up.

Now back to the topic...

I honestly don't think we are going to be able to hit 400 without making the car unstreetable. If I can get 350RWHP out of this car in NA form, I will have reached my goals. The problem is that we don't really know what power we are making because all dynos read differently. Getting 400hp doesn't mean anything these days. I think we have to start talking in percentages now.

For example... lets borrow Stillen's baseline run dyno here with their exhaust.



They got a 6.5% increase over stock. To make "300WHP" on their dyno they need a 9% gain. To make "400whp" they need 45.4% gain.




We should really start measuring power gains in percentage over baseline run...there is a limited number of dynos so I think it might be helpful if I start a thread for baseline pulls for each type. What do you guys think? Based on those baseline runs we can make a table of how each dyno compares to the other. When we have a "multiplier" table for each dyno, then we can set 1 designated dyno as the "overall benchmark dyno" that everyone compares to. That is the only way to have numbers that mean anything...if everyone is on the same "page".

I can start a chart and then eventually get someone with programming skills to make us a nice little calculator. I understand there are different settings that can be used on each dyno that will affect the readings, however this is the closest thing we can get.

Anyone else would like this?

definately

[MightyBobo]

So I did a little searching around youtube, found this video. Long and short, he has longtubes w/ no emissions, their own custom exhaust/intake setup, Nismo street cam's, and everything else is still stock. Now I know its the 3.5L, but none the less - they still only squeeked out 313WHP.

YouTube - SG Motorsport Longtube Racecar Development