Short Throw Shifter and Syncro Rev Match

Matt · 11-12-2009, 01:31 AM

I've seen this touched upon in a few threads, but never anything concrete.

Any feedback from members with short throw shifters in regards to the rev match function? I guess it's possible the size of the shifter assembly has no effect on the syncro-rev match feature. Everything seem ok after x miles? That's about my only concern. A proper install and some lubricant for reverse takes care of my other concerns.

How's the overall feel of the shifter after getting used to it? I'm probably going with AMS once I find it for a decent price.

imag · 11-12-2009, 03:10 AM

I have the B&M kit. It has no effect on SRM. If you look at a diagram of the SRM box location, you'll see why. The sensors are right at the transmission.

As far as the short shift kit - I'm not sure I'd recommend it, and I *love* notchy shifters. There are four main effects of the B&M kit:

1. Replacing rubber/plastic with metal fittings means a more mechanical feel. This part is great.

2. Shorter throw on the shift due to changed shift fulcrum: while I generally like shorter throws, especially on the Miata and S2K transmissions (the two best ever, as far as I'm concerned), I'm not completely convinced that the increased shift effort matches this transmission. Initially, the fact that I really needed to pull on it to get it out of gear (especially when the tranny is cold) actually lowered my shift accuracy as far as timing.

3. Shortened gearshift shaft: This part sucks, IMHO. The shift lever is way too short on the kit. Not only is the fulcrum lowered for a shorter throw but the knob is way low. This means that the knob is further from the wheel (not good), the shift effort is way too high for smooth shifting around town, and, a minor quibble, the ergonomics felt way worse to me. I actually added parts to the shifter to bring the knob up to where it was before. The throws are shorter due to #2, but the shifter length is like stock, which brings shift effort back to a reasonable level and returns the ergonomics to what I like.

4. Taking off the stock shift knob is almost impossible to do without destroying it. Unfortunately, the way the shift boot is set up, it's designed to clip to the knob, so it's hard to get a good look after the kit is installed (unless you managed to save the stock knob, which a few people have gotten away with). Even if you do keep the stock knob, then you can't adjust it easily back to stock height (see #3).

Honestly, I almost wish I hadn't changed the shifter. I thought the stock feel was a bit rubbery, but I got used to it, and I was pretty damned smooth. I am near there again on smoothness into and out of each gear, but I still haven't dealt with the shift boot that doesn't interface with the knob. I actually want to get a new stock knob, but then I'll also have to figure out some way to get the height back up to stock with those threads. I'll do it one of these days.

My $0.02. My guess is that most of these issues, but maybe not all, apply to the AMS kit as well. Some people love both though, so they should weigh in...

Matt · 11-12-2009, 03:24 AM

Thanks for all the info, and they all seem like very valid concerns.

Modshack · 11-12-2009, 10:36 AM

Great review IMAG. I've been reluctant to do this for just the reasons you've cited.

On your boot issue, lose the cheezy plastic and get a Redline goods boot. With a smaller hole, a rubber washer on the shaft it can be made to fit quite well. Also, the TWM knob, in addition to being nicely weighted (14 oz) it is also height adjustable over about a 1" range. I've got mine dropped a bit and it shifts like butter..

theDreamer · 11-12-2009, 10:41 AM

Cannot argue with his review, I would say that I do have a bit of a rattle at high RPMs when in third (5000 or more). I have not arguments against it being lower as I am very tall so it actually fits the length of my arm better overall.

I will say I am happy with the B&M overall, would I do it again? Maybe not, I might wait or look for other companies, but getting rid of that rubbery shift feel is what I really wanted to get rid of.

cab83_750 · 11-14-2009, 07:40 PM

"Rumor" has it (from Porsche bulletin boards) that short-throw shifters place stress to the tranny. That is why Porsche does not to crazy making it 'too short.'

Modshack · 11-14-2009, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cab83_750

"Rumor" has it (from Porsche bulletin boards) that short-throw shifters place stress to the tranny. That is why Porsche does not to crazy making it 'too short.'

Syncronizers need time to spin up the next gear for a grindless shift. A short shifter, shifted at the same speed as before tends to rush that. I've had several short shifters on Porsche's without issue, but I'm not a speed shifter either. If you do it for feel, rather than for a quick shift you'll have no issues. Unfortunately changing the fulcum ratio (as most shrot shifters do) may make the "feel" unusually notchy and increase the shifting effort.. Porsche's typically have a relatively long throw so they're not affected as dramatically as some cars.

cab83_750 · 11-15-2009, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

Syncronizers need time to spin up the next gear for a grindless shift. A short shifter, shifted at the same speed as before tends to rush that. I've had several short shifters on Porsche's without issue, but I'm not a speed shifter either. If you do it for feel, rather than for a quick shift you'll have no issues. Unfortunately changing the fulcum ratio (as most shrot shifters do) may make the "feel" unusually notchy and increase the shifting effort.. Porsche's typically have a relatively long throw so they're not affected as dramatically as some cars.

I installed the factory short shifter just for the feel. I agree with you.

m4a1mustang · 11-15-2009, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imag

2. Shorter throw on the shift due to changed shift fulcrum: while I generally like shorter throws, especially on the Miata and S2K transmissions (the two best ever, as far as I'm concerned), I'm not completely convinced that the increased shift effort matches this transmission. Initially, the fact that I really needed to pull on it to get it out of gear (especially when the tranny is cold) actually lowered my shift accuracy as far as timing.

3. Shortened gearshift shaft: This part sucks, IMHO. The shift lever is way too short on the kit. Not only is the fulcrum lowered for a shorter throw but the knob is way low. This means that the knob is further from the wheel (not good), the shift effort is way too high for smooth shifting around town, and, a minor quibble, the ergonomics felt way worse to me. I actually added parts to the shifter to bring the knob up to where it was before. The throws are shorter due to #2, but the shifter length is like stock, which brings shift effort back to a reasonable level and returns the ergonomics to what I like.

I very much agree!

I have been thinking about modifying it to raise the knob back to factory height like you, but I may also return to stock.

This transmission just isn't suited for quick shifts, so other than taking away some of the factory "slop," I don't see where a short-shifter is beneficial. Like you said, from an ergonomics and casual driving standpoint I think it makes things less enjoyable overall. The TR3650 + Steeda Tri-Ax short shifter on my Mustang was awesome... super quick, perfectly crisp shifts... the 370Z... not so much.

And I am very disappointed that I had to trash the factory knob because it was very comfortable... Think I may have to source another one, but I hear they aren't cheap!

I've had the shifter on the car for almost 10,000 miles now, so during that time period my opinion of it has changed. Funny how I'm finding the things that got my jollies off when I was 17-21 with my Mustang GT just don't do the same for me now that I've grown up a bit.

imag · 11-15-2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

I very much agree!

I have been thinking about modifying it to raise the knob back to factory height like you, but I may also return to stock.

This transmission just isn't suited for quick shifts, so other than taking away some of the factory "slop," I don't see where a short-shifter is beneficial. Like you said, from an ergonomics and casual driving standpoint I think it makes things less enjoyable overall. The TR3650 + Steeda Tri-Ax short shifter on my Mustang was awesome... super quick, perfectly crisp shifts... the 370Z... not so much.

And I am very disappointed that I had to trash the factory knob because it was very comfortable... Think I may have to source another one, but I hear they aren't cheap!

I've had the shifter on the car for almost 10,000 miles now, so during that time period my opinion of it has changed. Funny how I'm finding the things that got my jollies off when I was 17-21 with my Mustang GT just don't do the same for me now that I've grown up a bit.

Indeed. After doing the kit, I was talking with my brother about how high shift effort is not always desirable, even though I've always hated BMW and Porsche transmissions for being too easy. He was saying that he loves his S2K shifter (who doesn't), but that he does notice that the extra effort can cause him to change his steering angle sometimes. His NSX, which has a longer throw and lower effort, doesn't cause him to brace against the wheel for shift, so he doesn't see a mid-turn bump from the shift.

When I had the B&M kit with the low height, it was definitely too much effort to pull the thing out of gear, stop, and pull it into the new gear. I don't speedshift; I like matching revs on the up and downshift, and making it a muscular effort to shift means that you just don't have as much finesse.

Modshack: I have a 16oz knob, spherical, with the flanged base. The spherical knob is actually too short; I liked the stock, where I could grab it vertically. I've thought about putting a new boot/grommet in, but I still haven't decided what I'm going to do with this thing in the end...

schrute · 11-15-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

And I am very disappointed that I had to trash the factory knob because it was very comfortable... Think I may have to source another one, but I hear they aren't cheap!

Mustang, I have a stock shift knob in perfect condition (mine came off easy when I installed a Nismo knob). $50 + shipping if you're interested.

z350boy · 11-15-2009, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

Great review IMAG. I've been reluctant to do this for just the reasons you've cited.

On your boot issue, lose the cheezy plastic and get a Redline goods boot. With a smaller hole, a rubber washer on the shaft it can be made to fit quite well. Also, the TWM knob, in addition to being nicely weighted (14 oz) it is also height adjustable over about a 1" range. I've got mine dropped a bit and it shifts like butter..

You could get a stainless steel shift collar fron Zeetoyz.com

imag · 11-16-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schrute

Mustang, I have a stock shift knob in perfect condition (mine came off easy when I installed a Nismo knob). $50 + shipping if you're interested.

Schrute,

I PM'd you. I'm hoping I can jump on that offer.

Does anyone know the stock thread size and count on the shifter? I would need to get a couple of hardware bits to elevate the post...

m4a1mustang · 11-16-2009, 03:05 PM

Thanks for the offer, Schrute, but I promised the GF I wouldn't spend any more money on the car this year!

Jump on it, imag... that's a great deal.

Modshack · 11-16-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imag

Does anyone know the stock thread size and count on the shifter? I would need to get a couple of hardware bits to elevate the post...

M10 x 1.25

11-12-2009, 01:31 AM	#1 (permalink)
Matt A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Augusta, GA Age: 41 Posts: 1,680 Drives: 2010 Avalanche LT Rep Power: 19	Short Throw Shifter and Syncro Rev Match I've seen this touched upon in a few threads, but never anything concrete. Any feedback from members with short throw shifters in regards to the rev match function? I guess it's possible the size of the shifter assembly has no effect on the syncro-rev match feature. Everything seem ok after x miles? That's about my only concern. A proper install and some lubricant for reverse takes care of my other concerns. How's the overall feel of the shifter after getting used to it? I'm probably going with AMS once I find it for a decent price. __________________ "Any man who can drive a 370z while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the Z the attention it deserves." Albert Einstein....modified. Last edited by Matt; 11-12-2009 at 02:53 AM.

11-12-2009, 03:10 AM	#2 (permalink)
imag Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 446 Drives: up the wall Rep Power: 16	I have the B&M kit. It has no effect on SRM. If you look at a diagram of the SRM box location, you'll see why. The sensors are right at the transmission. As far as the short shift kit - I'm not sure I'd recommend it, and I love notchy shifters. There are four main effects of the B&M kit: 1. Replacing rubber/plastic with metal fittings means a more mechanical feel. This part is great. 2. Shorter throw on the shift due to changed shift fulcrum: while I generally like shorter throws, especially on the Miata and S2K transmissions (the two best ever, as far as I'm concerned), I'm not completely convinced that the increased shift effort matches this transmission. Initially, the fact that I really needed to pull on it to get it out of gear (especially when the tranny is cold) actually lowered my shift accuracy as far as timing. 3. Shortened gearshift shaft: This part sucks, IMHO. The shift lever is way too short on the kit. Not only is the fulcrum lowered for a shorter throw but the knob is way low. This means that the knob is further from the wheel (not good), the shift effort is way too high for smooth shifting around town, and, a minor quibble, the ergonomics felt way worse to me. I actually added parts to the shifter to bring the knob up to where it was before. The throws are shorter due to #2, but the shifter length is like stock, which brings shift effort back to a reasonable level and returns the ergonomics to what I like. 4. Taking off the stock shift knob is almost impossible to do without destroying it. Unfortunately, the way the shift boot is set up, it's designed to clip to the knob, so it's hard to get a good look after the kit is installed (unless you managed to save the stock knob, which a few people have gotten away with). Even if you do keep the stock knob, then you can't adjust it easily back to stock height (see #3). Honestly, I almost wish I hadn't changed the shifter. I thought the stock feel was a bit rubbery, but I got used to it, and I was pretty damned smooth. I am near there again on smoothness into and out of each gear, but I still haven't dealt with the shift boot that doesn't interface with the knob. I actually want to get a new stock knob, but then I'll also have to figure out some way to get the height back up to stock with those threads. I'll do it one of these days. My $0.02. My guess is that most of these issues, but maybe not all, apply to the AMS kit as well. Some people love both though, so they should weigh in... Last edited by imag; 11-12-2009 at 03:14 AM.

11-12-2009, 03:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
Matt A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Augusta, GA Age: 41 Posts: 1,680 Drives: 2010 Avalanche LT Rep Power: 19	Thanks for all the info, and they all seem like very valid concerns. __________________ "Any man who can drive a 370z while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the Z the attention it deserves." Albert Einstein....modified.

11-12-2009, 10:36 AM	#4 (permalink)
Modshack A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Greenville NC Posts: 2,883 Drives: 370Z Sport Rep Power: 976	Great review IMAG. I've been reluctant to do this for just the reasons you've cited. On your boot issue, lose the cheezy plastic and get a Redline goods boot. With a smaller hole, a rubber washer on the shaft it can be made to fit quite well. Also, the TWM knob, in addition to being nicely weighted (14 oz) it is also height adjustable over about a 1" range. I've got mine dropped a bit and it shifts like butter.. __________________ Steal my car! (SOLD)...Now Porsche Cayman S Oil Cooler DIY: Here!

11-12-2009, 10:41 AM	#5 (permalink)
theDreamer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 30,879 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 4210	Cannot argue with his review, I would say that I do have a bit of a rattle at high RPMs when in third (5000 or more). I have not arguments against it being lower as I am very tall so it actually fits the length of my arm better overall. I will say I am happy with the B&M overall, would I do it again? Maybe not, I might wait or look for other companies, but getting rid of that rubbery shift feel is what I really wanted to get rid of. __________________ theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

11-14-2009, 07:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
cab83_750 Track Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: CA Posts: 887 Drives: 09 NISSAN 370Z Rep Power: 417	"Rumor" has it (from Porsche bulletin boards) that short-throw shifters place stress to the tranny. That is why Porsche does not to crazy making it 'too short.'

11-16-2009, 03:05 PM	#14 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6962	Thanks for the offer, Schrute, but I promised the GF I wouldn't spend any more money on the car this year! Jump on it, imag... that's a great deal. __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!

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