A Couple of rare mods would like your opinions with.
 

Hi,

What I'm about to post here have been deeply researched and looked for until I came to a conclusion that I will install those mods.. Unless you guys see otherwise, please state the reason why I shouldn't.

My car is a 2012 G37s Sedan 6MT.


The first is a Water/Meth Injection Kit made by AEM.

Water/Methanol Multi Input Injection Kit for MAF, MAP, 0-5V or IDC | AEM

Well, the reasons for thinking of getting this mod are:

1) The bad 95 RON (90-91 AKI) pump gas around here. And no other higher Octane gas than this. Could get VP race gas but it's very expensive because it's illegal here.

2) The hot weather in the Summer which could easily reach 115 F at day time.

This is a cheap way to increase the Octane rating and reduce the temps when it's necessary. A 165 KG drum of Methanol here is about $205 (yes it's measured by mass not volume when making a % mix with water).

3) Tuning. Recently I got my car EcuTek E-tuned by a pro tuner which is well known here in the forums. Let me just say it wasn't a pleasant experience tuning with him. Nevertheless, He netted me around 3 WHP up top and around 7-9 WHP in mid to high RPM range. I was actually expecting more but this is the maximum the car can get with the gas available here according to what he stated.

So I showed my data logs to another tuner as I came to a dead end with the one who tuned my car. The second one told me that the car easily knocks and recommended me to get a race gas to see if there will be any knock corrections at a 4th gear pull on the aggressive map.

For that, I made the old school Toluene/Pump gas mix and increased the Octane rating to about 94 AKI. Used this site to mix the right ratio (Octane Mixture Calculator). Result was as expected, no knock corrections occurred throughout the pull. Meaning there is a place for more timing and more power to be gained.

That is all to know about the first mod.

The second one came to my mind when was researching the water meth mod.

Crankcase Evacuation System

Allstar Performance Crankcase Evacuation Systems ALL34145 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

This is necessary to prevent the crankcase get contaminated by the water/meth mix that could get in from the small tubes at the intake tubing which is feeding fresh air to the crankcase.

This can be done by installing caps on these small ports on the intake tubes so the water meth would only flow through the throttle bodies into the combustion chambers.

This mod will also help in making more vacuum in the crankcase which is good for the seals and the performance of the engine.

I'm just not sure about the set up of the crankcase evac system whether at the PCV or the valve covers ports. Would like your help in how to set it up.

Any opinions & thoughts would be appreciated.


Thanks

Do you have ethanol where you live? In I'm socal and 91 sucks so i run a blend. 3 gal e85 the rest 91. Noticeable torque increase.

Nope.. No Ethanol around here. The only thing I can do here is the homebrew mixes like the Toluene/Xylene mix with the pump gas with some lubricants too.

Forgot to mention the mods on the car. Here:

1) Z1 oil cooler with 25 Setrab core for the engine.
2) CNT Test Pipes with HKS Resonators Style.
3) aFe drop ins with HPS Post MAF Silicone intake hoses.
4) Waiting in the garage to be installed soon the new Z1 Cold Air Intake kit.

I dynoed before and after the tune with the same parts installed. (SAE, Smoothing=5. With almost the same conditions)

Base line before the tune: whp= 284.74/Tq= 234.47

After the tune whp= 287.55/ Tq= was not reading well this time but it was almost the same before it fluctuates.

But like I said, around 7 to 9 whp gain in mid to high range. Not much gain in Tq though

Car is lightly moded and will get more parts as I'm slowly progressing in this.

I'd say you'd be better off getting an cat back exhaust first rather then spending 205/drum every so often. Eventually you'd be paying more for the same power increase.

You could be right about that for a long term period.

But for a drum this big and only using 50/50 Water meth, this would last a very long time. Note that the system will be installed with an ON/OFF switch and only turned one when needed. Also there will be a map tuned only for the water meth injection that I would switch to when the system is armed. I just want to make sure if what I'm going to do here would extend the limits of tuning.

I will get to the catback later but as we all know that the bottle neck for our cars are always the cats. Getting rid of those and you've got the most out of the exhaust system.

If you see 115 degree temps regularly I would upgrade that oil cooler before you do anything.

I really don't think you need that crankvent system. I've never heard of that being needed for WI. That would be more of an issue for a blower or turbo, I think. You just won't see much change in crankcase pressure.

Also, as I said in my PM -- you really should play with the tune before all this... WI is another trip to the dyno, a whole new tank and lines to keep track of -- a lot goes into it.

OP, where do you call home? And what is the weather?

Home is in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia. A city called Yanbu.

Weather in the Summer is very hot and humid. And the coolest it can get here in Winter is 55 F.

For the crank vent system, my only concern is the possibility of the water meth mix going to the crankcase from the small tube going from the intake piping to the valve cover. As you may know that when the car is idling or throttle is partially pressed, that little tube acts as a fresh air feed to the crankcase to make up for the vacuum made by the intake manifold. When in WOT, the same port acts as a vent due to the low vacuum in the manifold cannot vent out the pressure inside the crankcase. So the flow of the fresh air going to the throttle body helps pulling the vented gasses coming from the valve cover though that tube.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Just need to make sure if I'm on the right track here.

You live in saudi arabia but you cant get good octane gasoline? Thats not what I expected lol. I hope you find a solution OP.

Sent from my SGH-T999L using Tapatalk

It won't spray at idle and you shouldn't need it at part throttle. Check valves on each WI injector will prevent it being pulled under vacuum.

Think of them as an extra set of fuel injectors -- except it would be a mix of water and alcohol. Also, you will want injectors that atomize the mix as much as possible -- even fuel can cause wetting and pool inside the IM if the atomization is poor (and especially when running cold).

But, this is my whole point: If you need WI at 0 boost (i.e., atmospheric pressure) and part throttle/low load, but NOT under high load, WOT or near-WOT, you should play with the existing tune first and not invest the money, time and effort in adding an entire secondary fueling/cooling system...

Moreover, high humidity will actually quench det -- it's water, highly atomized, and it displaces air... high pressure, high oxygen, high heat (which also increases pressure) are the potential problems -- but if you are knocking at part throttle and not at WOT, its a weird tuning foible that can be addressed with your existing tuning software.

I'm telling you, the problem is either the tune (and if so, likely a problem on throttle tip-in, due either to too much spark advance, less than ideal valve timing or overlap, or a lean condition, causing a miss) or you aren't knocking.

Datalog, see what is happening, under what conditions and where and use that as your guide.

Imagine that, gas being cheaper than water but yet you can't find a decent Octane pump gas.

It's more of a lack of interest by the Gov in cars enthusiasts as the gas here is sold only by the Gov.

Heard there will be 98 RON in the near future.. But I'm not going to wait for that near future lol.

I will data log and see what causes the knock at low RPM and I will also post the logs here hoping for someone to point out the porblem. I can read the logs but only understand some of what happening. An expert insight would be appreciated.

Also by reviewing the logs, I would like to make sure if there is a place for more power by using a higher Octane fuel.


Thanks Jordo.

No problem -- hope my suggestions help! :tiphat:

Can you also make adjustments after datalogging?

Can you give me a screenshot of what variables you can datalog -- I might be able to point to some key ones to record.

Also, how does ECUtek record knock events? What does the actual output look like?

I'm sure one of us can help pin point it. One easy thing to check is to see what looks different in the various maps between a stock settings map and yours. Anything changed at part throttle would certainly be suspect. It could easily be poor VVEL settings.

If its not actually knocking, but rather some other thing is making a noise (which, BTW, can still fool the ECU into thinking you are knocking, as it just records a given deviation from recorded engine resonance, and if it passes a certain threshold, is logged as knock) then it could also be an unusual spot of valve chatter, or if you have a 7AT, a cracked flexplate -- a few folks have had that happen, and it both sounds like knocking and fools the ECU too.

This is the most overkill thread I've seen.

Buy a faster car, buy a cat back, intakes, HFCs, something not water/meth.

If you NEED higher octane still, do Toluene mix, not xylene. Toluene doesn't need additives

He needs a better tune.

Or stop trying to nickel and dime horsepower and spend the money for the right mods.

It sure helped. :tup:

With EcuTek, there is no option like the Uprev tuner license which let you adjust some few factors and tunes. Only a pro tuner who is licensed by EcuTek can do that.

Check the log attached, it's a 4th gear pull was taken with the regular 95 RON pump gas. Generally it looks good but the tuner tuned it based on the quality and the Octane of the gas which is the limiting factor for more improvement.

You can check the knock corrections occurred during the pull. If there is less or no correction, more timing can be added.

I will also try to log the low RPM knocking to get plenty of data which would explain these weird knocking events.

I usually open the files on an Excel sheet. Don't know if there is any other programs can show the logs better.

It's not that overkill when I only have few options available in my case. It's not that I'm not happy with how my car performs. I like the G more than any other car in its class. Just want it to put out more and see the outcome. Aren't most of us modding for the same reason? plus a little drag racing fun :driving:

I've already had test pipes installed. And Z1 CAI kit will also be installed soon.

I'm just not satisfied with the tune as I've spent about $850 for only 3 WHP max!. The tuner couldn't help more because of the low Octane gas here. So this what got me to think of this mod. Believe me if I at least can put my hands on a 93 AKI gas, I would've completely ignored the idea of the water meth injection.

I also can't buy Toluene or Xylene. They're not licensed for individuals :gtfo2: . But it's ok to grab a big drum of Methanol. Paint thinners here contain small amount of Toluene. Other types contain white Kerosene and some alcohol. Can't find anything contains Toluene or Xylene on any market shelves.

I could get a cat back and not even ask about any brand because the forums are already full of threads about them. I'm just trying to do something unique hoping to get good results that maybe some people would find it useful.

Which can only be done with a higher Octane gas.

I've already spent the money on the right mods. But the last mod (EcuTek) still has some potential that needs to be released.

Check this out: HorsePower Explores the "Chemical Intercooler" | HorsePower | PowerBlockTV - Full Episodes

No. You can have it tuned for lower octane. My Z has 2 tunes. One for 93, and one for 91 octane.

It's already tuned for the available high octane here. And the results were poor and not justifying how much the tune costs. So if I want a better tune, I need a better octane gas.

What I've read so far from almost all the people who tuned with EcuTek that the gains were great over the stock or even Uprev tunes. But what I've gained with EcuTek over the stock is just ridiculously low.

Read what you just wrote. You need a better tune from someone else.

Let me point something out. The first tuner who tuned the car was John Visconti. The second one is Sebastian @ Specialty Z who I consulted about the tune and he literally said that "the engine knocks rather easily. This is why it's not making more power". And then he suggested "to run higher Octane and perform another WOT log. Check the knock corrections. If its OK and you get 0 correction try running a more aggressive map and repeat logging". And I did that. It's all written in the OP.

Now both John and Sebastian pointed out that the fuel is the issue and no more power can be added unless I run a higher Octane fuel, I guess this is a good reason to look for such mod.

I asked Sebastian about the water/meth and this was his opinion: "We don't like water\meth because of the negatives it can bring, more so on a forced induction application. On an NA I've never tried it to know how well it may work. It would definitely help with knock and keep temps cooler. May not be a bad idea. There is less risk on an NA engine as well."

Looking over the log...

So, hottest intake temp was under 90* F? You definitely shouldn't be knocking. There's a little difference between bank 1 and 2 on various things, but that's normal. Nothing looks immediately out of line -- although I am not sure what VVEL values are desirable vs. load...

Where did you hear knock? I see time but not RPM...

Wait -- I see where it's pulling timing I think.

EDIT:
Hmm. I think wherever its pulling timing, have it re-tuned so it doesn't need to. Nothing is leaping out at me as looking amiss. You might just be running too much timing at certain places. I'm still not ruling out that you aren't actually knocking tho...

It will be easier for me to try and pinpoint what might be the problem if I know whereabouts in the log to focus.

Hey,

It's been some time since my last show up. Been busy on a lot with vacation and so.

Thank you to take some of your time to dig into the logs.

I'm sold in the water meth and I'll be getting the AEM kit soon and set everything up. Will also let Sebastian re-tune the car with the addition of the water meth and also some other mods that I'll get into later on once everything is installed and set up.


I've already drilled the Z1 intake pipes for the injection nozzles to be installed for the water meth installation process.


Stay tuned.