No Full Synthetic Oil in the Z?

1slow370 · 11-17-2009, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zless@arizona

kannibul: Excellent points! Most important to me is that you mentioned Group III/IV/V oils, and that is the crux of the matter!
.....IIRC, G-III is the "hydro-cracked" oils; G-IV is PAO (polyalfaolefin) oils; G-V is the ester oils.
.....the G-III oils are the ones that Castrol uses, and is allowed to call it "Synthetic" due to a lawsuit. G-III oils are processed from petroleum-base stocks and are not "Synthetic" as the industry and scientists who created synthetics understand the term. I do not use Castrol G-III oils because they lied and used attorneys and judges to be able to label G-III oil as synthetic.
.....In the early 80s, I started using Mobil1. I copied a test run by Ford that I included for my thesis: New oil filter and Mobil1 oil change; keep in vehicle for 100,000 miles (include 15,000 mile filter changes and oil top off but no drain); Arizona 1977 280-Z. The Ford engineer examined the engine after the 100,000 Michigan Winter/Summer miles and it's specs were within factory new! No issues with my inline-6!
.....G-IV ester oils are mainly used in racing vehicles. The predominant race-only use is due to two characteristics unique to esters: they do not last long, and they absorb water. Race use heats the engine and oil so that the water evaporates--driving your 370Z to work may not reach the oil temperature necessary to remove water.
.....Nissan's recommendation to use their proprietary ester blend probably solves the water retention issue, and provides the optimum lubrication for their variable-valve system.
.....Corvette crankcases are filled at the factory with Mobil1 and have a 15,000 mile drain interval. I was a test driver and prototype development technician for GM, and we only used Mobil1 for the Corvette engines for top off and changes. The engines are/were run for a million miles basically non-stop 24/7, then disassembled and inspected.
.....There's a reason GM and Nissan recommend certain oils for the high-end engines. The VQ37VHR is not a Chevrolet 350 c.i. V-8 with hydraulic actuated pushrod valves, and one should not use the same oil for both engines.
.....Some 370Z owners on this site are switching to Motul which is mostly an ester-based oil. My concern is the buildup of water in the crankcase if the outings don't include at least one hour each day of redline racing on the local track.
......I can almost guarantee that using the Nissan Ester blend will be the best choice. I can not state that using a different synthetic will harm your engine--only the experience and reports of the 370Z members will identify issues. I will recommend staying away from conventional petroleum-based oils for the VQ37VHR.
R/S, Greg

1. don't give any credit to his explanation of how engine break-in works I addressed that already (nothing personal it's just wrong)

2. In about 3 of the other NISSAN ESTER OIL threads I and other people have already stated that nissan's "ester" oil is NOT a regular race ester oil in the that is is regular old crap oil with .5-1.5% of a special ester additive in it, and trace amounts of nano sized pieces of industrial abrasives.

To avoid people knowing how big of a scam it is NISSAN does not list the group rating for this oil because you cannot call it a group v ester oil since it is fundamentally a group II base stock. I don't see why nissan wouldn't use it in the factory fill because it is a $3 a quart oil. You need to realize that we are being charged $12.50 a quart in order to cover nissan's multiple patent cases, and the R/d cost of the initial devolpement of the oil which started way back before 2006 which is when nissan filed their international patent claim. Hell nissan doesn't even have to pay to package the oil headed to the factory as it probably comes in on a tanker and is pumped into dispensing system like most other auto manufacturers because it is stupid to pay a guy to sit there and open then pour 5 bottles of oil into every vehicle they make. If i sell you car and don't tell you a single thing about it or make a single claim, how can sue me later when after you drive it off the lot, the paint wash off with rain, the engine has 5 horsepower, windows do not move, the electrical system doesn't work in any temperature other than 60-70degs, and the interior is made from construction paper carefully folded/glued by underpaid chinese factory children?

Matt · 11-17-2009, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

2. In about 3 of the other NISSAN ESTER OIL threads I and other people have already stated that nissan's "ester" oil is NOT a regular race ester oil in the that is is regular old crap oil with .5-1.5% of a special ester additive in it, and trace amounts of nano sized pieces of industrial abrasives.

To avoid people knowing how big of a scam it is NISSAN does not list the group rating for this oil because you cannot call it a group v ester oil since it is fundamentally a group II base stock. I don't see why nissan wouldn't use it in the factory fill because it is a $3 a quart oil. You need to realize that we are being charged $12.50 a quart in order to cover nissan's multiple patent cases, and the R/d cost of the initial devolpement of the oil which started way back before 2006 which is when nissan filed their international patent claim. Hell nissan doesn't even have to pay to package the oil headed to the factory as it probably comes in on a tanker and is pumped into dispensing system like most other auto manufacturers because it is stupid to pay a guy to sit there and open then pour 5 bottles of oil into every vehicle they make. If i sell you car and don't tell you a single thing about it or make a single claim, how can sue me later when after you drive it off the lot, the paint wash off with rain, the engine has 5 horsepower, windows do not move, the electrical system doesn't work in any temperature other than 60-70degs, and the interior is made from construction paper carefully folded/glued by underpaid chinese factory children?

So you're saying you would recommend we use Nissan Ester Oil?

1slow370 · 11-17-2009, 07:29 AM

I'm saying it's up to you. Personally i think i'm ordering a crate of the new motul 300v for half the cost of the nissan oil and it's comparable to redline. although if you wanna talk transmissions after they replaced mine i put 50 miles on it and now it's going in storage because we have something called snow up here. When it gets out the first thing after throwing the battery back in and driving it home is going to be a few quarts of redline MT90. maybe a mix of nissan ester oil and motul? Who knows. I wish nissan would say more about the stuff so everyone wouldn't be getting so damn confused over it. Here's a quick check somebody who tracks their mileage wanna say what ti was before and after doing an ester to synthetic swap as that would directly indicate a change in friction reduction? If that comes out the same i say don't run the ester because you can run the synthetic longer for the same price. You know what if nobody has done it by spring i'll do it.

One thing is for sure though, DO NOT THINK THAT THE NISSAN OIL IS SYNTHETIC AND TRY TO PUSH IT OVER 3,500 MILES BETWEEN CHANGES. Even if it does indeed lubricate better (yet to be proven), It will still suffer thermal breakdown.

370Zsteve · 11-19-2009, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

We agree to agree....

Hey Mod, I just received this email from an Infiniti dealer. ya, it's not an official announcement, but it might help us verify what's in that engine from the factory...........

Oil

Saturday, November 14, 2009 5:04 PM

From:
This sender is DomainKeys verified"brianaghajani11@beshoffinfiniti.dealer.com" <brianaghajani11@beshoffinfiniti.dealer.com>
Add sender to Contacts

To:
<deleted>

The G37 comes factory filled with Nissan Ester. This information was obtained from Infiniti Regional technical dept.

Regards,
Brian Aghajani

kannibul · 11-19-2009, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

Hey Mod, I just received this email from an Infiniti dealer. ya, it's not an official announcement, but it might help us verify what's in that engine from the factory...........

Oil

Saturday, November 14, 2009 5:04 PM

From:
This sender is DomainKeys verified"brianaghajani11@beshoffinfiniti.dealer.com" <brianaghajani11@beshoffinfiniti.dealer.com>
Add sender to Contacts

To:
<deleted>

The G37 comes factory filled with Nissan Ester. This information was obtained from Infiniti Regional technical dept.

Regards,
Brian Aghajani

Well that clarifies things...(sarcasm)

I mean, if Nissan markets the oil as synthetic, and it comes loaded with it from the factory then what's the harm...unless it's dino oil with additives (as spec'd here, and what I also believe to be true) - then that puts a twist on the logic of running dino-oil. I mean, dino oil with lots of additives are OK, but somehow synthetic isn't? The additives generally are what make one oil "better' than another, even to where something like a Group-III oil would perform better (ie, lubricate better, resist shearing, etc) than a Group-IV or Group-V oil...which brings me back to the original point...if Nissan Oil is being marketed as synthetic and/or having superior qualities than other oils out there (including high-dollar synthetics) and lets say maybe it does...then how can it be that running a true synthetic will harm break-in...it can't be both ways.

370Zsteve · 11-19-2009, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Well that clarifies things...(sarcasm)

I mean, if Nissan markets the oil as synthetic, and it comes loaded with it from the factory then what's the harm...unless it's dino oil with additives (as spec'd here, and what I also believe to be true) - then that puts a twist on the logic of running dino-oil. I mean, dino oil with lots of additives are OK, but somehow synthetic isn't? The additives generally are what make one oil "better' than another, even to where something like a Group-III oil would perform better (ie, lubricate better, resist shearing, etc) than a Group-IV or Group-V oil...

I say we change the thread to an Ecological comparo of Dino vs Synth.

OK I'll start. Synthetic is better for the planet.

vipor · 11-19-2009, 09:08 AM

i use group-vi oil

aka semen

blah blah delete my irrelevant post

Modshack · 11-19-2009, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

Hey Mod, I just received this email from an Infiniti dealer. The G37 comes factory filled with Nissan Ester. This information was obtained from Infiniti Regional technical dept.

Guess we can put that to bed then...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Well that clarifies things...(sarcasm)

I mean, if Nissan markets the oil as synthetic, and it comes loaded with it from the factory then what's the harm...unless it's dino oil with additives (as spec'd here, and what I also believe to be true) - then that puts a twist on the logic of running dino-oil.

Marketed as Synthetic? I don't think anyone who's done any research has assumed Nissan Ester to be synthetic.

Summary for the reading impaired:

Dino (ester) from the factory
Synthetic (optional) after proper break-in

370Zsteve · 11-19-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

Guess we can put that to bed then...

Marketed as Synthetic? I don't think anyone who's done any research has assumed Nissan Ester to be synthetic.

Summary for the reading impaired:

Dino (ester) from the factory
Synthetic (optional) after proper break-in

Meh, maybe we can put it to bed. We got one step closer in the foodchain to the factory, but it ain't in writing.

Nope, I don't recall seeing the oil marketed as synthetic, either. ;-)

kannibul · 11-19-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

Guess we can put that to bed then...

Marketed as Synthetic? I don't think anyone who's done any research has assumed Nissan Ester to be synthetic.

Summary for the reading impaired:

Dino (ester) from the factory
Synthetic (optional) after proper break-in

The second half of my point was omitted...if it's dino oil with an additive package that makes it "superior" to other oils in terms of lubrication properties (nano-particles, namely), then how is it that running a synthetic would be bad...?

370Zsteve · 11-19-2009, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

The second half of my point was omitted...if it's dino oil with an additive package that makes it "superior" to other oils in terms of lubrication properties (nano-particles, namely), then how is it that running a synthetic would be bad...?

Who said synthetic was bad? Besides, it's good for the environment.

kannibul · 11-19-2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

Who said synthetic was bad? Besides, it's good for the environment.

Bad during break-in.

370Zsteve · 11-19-2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Bad during break-in.

Yes, but good for the environment. I'm trying to kill the thread.

Modshack · 11-19-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

Meh, maybe we can put it to bed. We got one step closer in the foodchain to the factory, but it ain't in writing.

Yeah...Knowing guys who worked in Factory Tech centers, they were often young guys working their way up to be field reps. May or may not be "absolute" on that one..

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Bad during break-in.

Didn't you hypothesize that all the break in occurs in the first 20 minutes??

I don't think anyone has proved that synthetic is "bad" one way or the other, given the number of high end cars that are factory filled with Syn juice. That, and the fact that crosshatching can often be seen on high mileage cylinder bores would leave the whole break-in theory in question.

Modshack · 11-19-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

Yes, but good for the environment. I'm trying to kill the thread.

11-19-2009, 09:08 AM	#127 (permalink)
vipor A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Euless, TX [ DFW ] Age: 42 Posts: 13,531 Drives: Nismo 09-0183 QAB Rep Power: 49	i use group-vi oil aka semen blah blah delete my irrelevant post __________________ 2009 NISMO # 0193 \| QAB \| Albums! \| 05.04.10 (Dynojet) 291.94hp/248.28tq Oil Cooler (DIY) \| Custom Headlights \| GTSPEC Braces \| F.I. Long Tube Headers

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11-17-2009, 07:29 AM	#123 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	I'm saying it's up to you. Personally i think i'm ordering a crate of the new motul 300v for half the cost of the nissan oil and it's comparable to redline. although if you wanna talk transmissions after they replaced mine i put 50 miles on it and now it's going in storage because we have something called snow up here. When it gets out the first thing after throwing the battery back in and driving it home is going to be a few quarts of redline MT90. maybe a mix of nissan ester oil and motul? Who knows. I wish nissan would say more about the stuff so everyone wouldn't be getting so damn confused over it. Here's a quick check somebody who tracks their mileage wanna say what ti was before and after doing an ester to synthetic swap as that would directly indicate a change in friction reduction? If that comes out the same i say don't run the ester because you can run the synthetic longer for the same price. You know what if nobody has done it by spring i'll do it. One thing is for sure though, DO NOT THINK THAT THE NISSAN OIL IS SYNTHETIC AND TRY TO PUSH IT OVER 3,500 MILES BETWEEN CHANGES. Even if it does indeed lubricate better (yet to be proven), It will still suffer thermal breakdown.