Increase in ethanol in gasoline

dannonebr

I see that the EPA is asking for input to a proposed new rule in the management of the Renewable Fuel Standard or RFS. This is a federal government mandate that requires a yearly an increase of the percentage of ethanol in gasoline which is now 10% to a new amount which soon will be 15%. In a year or two or three the percentage will continue to increase to to more, such as 20%, 30% until 2022. MANDATED requirements state that biofuel use will need to increase from the current 12 billion gallons to 36 billion by 2022 Less than 5% of all cars and trucks in use in America now are designed to run on gasoline of greater than 10%. My owners manual of my 2014 Z states that the warranty is void if I use more than 10% ethanol. Does anyone know if we can run higher percentages of ethanol, like 15%, 20%, 30% without damaging the engine? Does anyone think Nissan will adjust their warranty policy concerning the ethanol percentages? I know I can run it if I make extensive modifications to the engine, but with increasing percentages it is going to be difficult to yearly adjust. Thoughts? More info Wikipedia

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Danno from the middle of no where.
SOLD 2016 Red Nismo 370Z -

jrb55gh

I’ve used as much as 25% E85 in myZ and noticed a slight increase in response after the ECU adjusted the fuel trims. Mileage was about 1-2mpg less. I did notice from a data log that the full throttle open loop operation ran at 12.1 a/f ratio whereas 93 octane ran at 11.95. That would be expected. My Z is stock except the engine has a tune for 93 octane.

I have heard from experts in the field of engine maintenance and wear that ethanol actually burns cleaner than petroleum gasoline and has less tendency to form sludge and varnish in the crankcase. Also it has a cleaning effect on the combustion chamber. They also say that the additives in E85 prevent fuel system corrosion and deterioration in vehicles manufactured after about 2001.

synolimit

Good and bad, increase in power, decrease in MPG making you buy more sooner.

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13 370z-

Elmo370z

That's the greedy a holes who control the market to cut the gasoline and charge the same to make max profits and force the public to buy newer cars or spend the money to convert their existing cars to run on the high ethanol gas. Ethanol free gas will always still available but will cost you an arm and a leg per gallon

TreeSemdyZee

Meanwhile in other news. A large food shortage has been reported due to the increase of ethanol in gasoline.
Once again, the Feds have to screw up everything. I'm so glad I have Big Brother to watch over me.

Hey NSA. Bite me.

POS VETT

I have no problem with increased ethanol content in fuel. I have a current-generation GM full-size truck that's an FFV and it can take advantage of running E85; it's rated at 25 more hp and 33 more ft-lbs just by running E85 alone. What the numbers don't tell, the engine calibration for E85 is more aggressive; throttle response is much improved and it runs more advanced ignition timing due to E85 resistance to auto-ignition. The engine has an 11:1 compression with direct injection and VVT.

As far as consumption rate, E85 rate is quite lower, however due to the lower price, the comparison should be done using $/mile figure. In my case, I compare it to 93-octane fuel price since there is no way I would use an 87-octane fuel in an engine with an 11:1 compression. So far, it is cheaper for me to run E85. Alas, I care not about my $/mile figure; E85 could be more expensive than 93-octane fuel and I would still choose E85.

Using the example of my truck, I have been wondering what it would be like to turn the Zs and my other cars to run E85. The kind of power, torque, and throttle response these cars would gain especially the one with turbocharging, dual VVT, multi-valve, higher compression ratio, and direct injection. An ethanol-content sensor would be needed in all cases.

jrb55gh

Although ethanol production from corn impacts the food supply, new research has made strides on producing it from switchgrass and other cellulosic plants. Also producing ethanol from plants is renewable. In other words as long as there is sun light we can make ethanol. Another advantage of ethanol is that it makes less carbon dioxide than petroleum when burned.

I understand that the best energy conversion rate (work out vs btu in) for an internal combustion engine running gasoline is about 28%. For ethanol the best energy conversion rate is about 40%. That means that if an engine is optimized to run ethanol with higher compression, ignition timing and valve timing, it can achieve about the same mpg as an engine tuned for gasoline.

Jordo!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you are probably worrying a little soon...

I think its safe to say that any alleged fueling mandates may or may not pass, but will not be acted on any sooner than cars are able to support them.

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dannonebr

When I use E10 (10% ethanol) in my 370Z I gets at least 10% less mileage. I check my mileage each tank. The same happened with my 2010 Honda Civic Si. There was an article a few months ago in Consumer Reports about damage that E10 ethanol is causing to newer cars with smaller engines and with turbos. Some of the manufacturers have issued TSB's about the damage.

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Danno from the middle of no where.
SOLD 2016 Red Nismo 370Z -

phunk

About 4 years of nothing but E85 in my 370z. No problems at all.

10, 20, 30%. No matter, not going to hurt anything. You will want to retune the ECU if you go much past 10% though.

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synolimit

Yeah it's been quite some time since I've seen issues with e85. It'll eat the **** out of older cars lines but not on new stuff I've seen since 2008. We don't have fuel return but if you want to know if your cars dying on an older car just pull the fuel pump and look at the sock. It'll be solid black and disgusting.

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13 370z-

SouthArk370Z

The two main sources of biomass for ethanol production are corn and sugar cane. Both take considerable amounts of energy, fertilizer, land, &c to produce - much more than just sunlight is required. The amount produced from other biomass is negligible and not likely to increase substantially.

In any case, ethanol is only a stopgap measure and not a long-term solution. Only real solution is a reduction in consumers of resources.

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dannonebr

Well put! I figure it's really a marketing thing and collecting the government subsidies to build and sell ethanol. Most farmers who grow corn that I know don't put ethanol in their farm gasoline tanks.

MY MAIN QUESTION IS - Since E10 will be disappearing and higher blends of ethanol will be soon replacing it, has anyone had EXPERIENCE with using higher mixes of ethanol like E15 or E20+ in their STOCK late model Z34s 'without' costly modifications to stock ECUs and injectors? I want a vehicle I can still drive on a road trip for 1000 or 2000 miles without having to worry about the effects, drive-ability issues of higher blend ethanol gas, or having to add snake oils to off set the issues. Don't get me wrong, I do indeed LIKE my 370Z! If the late model 370Zs have significant problems with E15, E20, etc., then it's time to trade before potential buyers figure out these cars have problems with the new government mandated ethanol gas being shoved down our throats. I've owned many vehicles over the last couple of decades, it really sucks being stuck in the boonies because of over blended ethanol or old ethanol a gas station still had in it's tank. Some vehicles are really sensitive to the fuel they use.

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Danno from the middle of no where.
SOLD 2016 Red Nismo 370Z -

jrb55gh

It is interesting that more fossil energy is required to produce gasoline than ethanol.

“According to (Argonne National Lab) calculations, the fossil energy input per unit of ethanol is lower—0.78 million British thermal units (Btu) of fossil energy consumed for each 1 million Btu of ethanol delivered—compared to 1.23 million Btu of fossil energy consumed for each 1 million Btu of gasoline

Some confusion arises because a portion of the total(not fossil or petroleum) energy input in the ethanol cycle is the “free” solar energy that ends up in the corn. Since the solar energy is free, renewable, and environmentally benign, it should not be taken into account in the energy balance calculations. While the total(includes solar) energy needed to produce a unit of ethanol is more than the total energy needed to produce a unit of gasoline, ethanol is superior when calculating either (1) the amount of fossil energy needed or (2) the amount of petroleum energy needed.”


This excerpt is from the government webpage:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...hure_color.pdf

Jordo!

I... seriously wouldn't lose much sleep over this.

There's been many, many changes over the decades -- switching from leaded to unleaded fuels, switching from carburetor-run motors to fuel injected engines, from distributors to COP's, etc. etc. etc.

The latest iteration is from port injection to DI.

There's usually some issues whenever there's a switch in fuel composition, allowable emissions, technology, etc. and it is usually anywhere from a minor to moderate PITA depending on what car you have and what specific issue is the problem.

Some new DI engines have problems with valve deposits, for example.

In short, yes, there may be some minor problems that will crop up here and there, but the probability of them being vast in scope, catastrophic in result, and also entirely the consumer's problem to deal with is very, very unlikely.

So... yes, based on the last few decades of automotive history (note: Don't go past 1980... 1970's cars rolled off the assembly line ready to break...), the odds are good that you will not have to junk your Z34 or Z35 or Z36 because of government mandated fuel changes.

Who knows? Your future Z50 may not run on fossil fuels at all, but I wouldn't worry too much about that for the time being...

As far as specific EPA mandates... this is usually varied state by state (Nebraska has very few... even fewer than Florida), calculated over millions of vehicles (esp. fleet vehicles) rather than demanded of EVERY vehicle, and rarely enforced on a level one could consider especially imposing (well, maybe CA notwithstanding...). Frequently the method is to offer incentives and or fines, not leave thousands of people stranded without fuel (or mass transit alternatives) or with destroyed engines.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/matrix

If all else fails: There's always horses.

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