VHR Billet Block

Mitco39 · 05-05-2015, 09:54 AM

Looking to do a build and was wondering if anyone has or knows of anyone with a billet block for our cars? I see that GTM was experimenting with it (not sure if they are still around or what their status is). But just wondering if there is anything else out there? Been told that by a reputable shop that our block doesnt like to push high hp numbers for any real period of time.

Basically looking to do this in such a way to ensure maximum reliability with the most amount of power and it seems like a new block is the best way to do this.

Thanks

Mitch

bullitt5897 · 05-05-2015, 12:54 PM

No one has built one from my knowledge. It would be very expensive as well.... And coming from me that says ALOT! lol

Mitco39 · 05-05-2015, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bullitt5897

No one has built one from my knowledge. It would be very expensive as well.... And coming from me that says ALOT! lol

How many miles you got on your build? Looking to do something similar but I want to do everything I can to safely hold the power as it seems like from what I heard our blocks really start to stress out over 700hp. Just looking for ways around that (if any).

phunk · 05-05-2015, 02:38 PM

A billet block is a pretty serious ordeal.. if you purchased one, you would be doing all the testing too - so you might find a host of unpleasant surprises along the way. Most the GT-Rs do a wet sleeve setup. The VR block is more robust than a VHR from the factory, but once they have both been hogged out for wet sleeves, you probably end up with a pretty similar result. Even those wet sleeved VR blocks dont last forever though. I know that most of the 1500+ hp GT-Rs will destroy their engine each event, which is why they bring spare engines or only do 1 or 2 passes before loading back up.

Mitco39 · 05-05-2015, 03:11 PM

Decision decisions...

Thanks Charles, ill be sure to come to you for any upgrades that i'll need! Much appreciated.

Elmo370z · 05-06-2015, 12:48 AM

What is a wet sleeve? Deep pockets?

phunk · 05-06-2015, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmo370z

What is a wet sleeve? Deep pockets?

When you sleeve a block, you can sleeve it wet or dry. The reference is to whether or not the sleeve is in direct contact with the water.

If you dry sleeve the block, you would basically just be boring it out large enough to eliminate the factory liner and into the aluminum, then you would press in a new, stronger/thicker sleeve.

When you wet sleeve it, you install sleeves that are so large, they are in direct contact with the water around the cylinder. In the VQ, this means removing the entirety of the floating sleeve. Then you press in the new sleeves.

A wet sleeve process is an interesting one, because you go from a block that was essentially one complete unit, to a block that is now just a chassis for individual sleeves that are just resting inside it. You have sacrificed some overall integrity of the foundation for the sake of individual cylinders that can handle much more pressure.

For a VQ block, this sacrifice is minimal since the sleeves were floating anyway, you remove very little of any structural part of the block. You are also adding some sleeve stability since the wet sleeves contact the block horizontally at the deck, when the stock sleeves last touched the block at the base.

There is lots of argument back and forth about the potential side effects of large masses of dissimilar materials when you put these giant ductile iron sleeves into aluminum blocks. There is no argument that the wet sleeved block will hold a LOT more power than the standard VQ block. The argument is to longevity, most specifically the headgasket.

Attached are photos of a VQ37VHR block prepped for a wet sleeve install, and a wet sleeve before installation.

If anyone wants a wet sleeve setup, I am practically next door to the guy who does the wet sleeves for most powerful GT-Rs, and as you can see from the photo, he has VHR experience as well now

jwick · 05-06-2015, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunk

When you sleeve a block, you can sleeve it wet or dry. The reference is to whether or not the sleeve is in direct contact with the water.

If you dry sleeve the block, you would basically just be boring it out large enough to eliminate the factory liner and into the aluminum, then you would press in a new, stronger/thicker sleeve.

When you wet sleeve it, you install sleeves that are so large, they are in direct contact with the water around the cylinder. In the VQ, this means removing the entirety of the floating sleeve. Then you press in the new sleeves.

A wet sleeve process is an interesting one, because you go from a block that was essentially one complete unit, to a block that is now just a chassis for individual sleeves that are just resting inside it. You have sacrificed some overall integrity of the foundation for the sake of individual cylinders that can handle much more pressure.

For a VQ block, this sacrifice is minimal since the sleeves were floating anyway, you remove very little of any structural part of the block. You are also adding some sleeve stability since the wet sleeves contact the block horizontally at the deck, when the stock sleeves last touched the block at the base.

There is lots of argument back and forth about the potential side effects of large masses of dissimilar materials when you put these giant ductile iron sleeves into aluminum blocks. There is no argument that the wet sleeved block will hold a LOT more power than the standard VQ block. The argument is to longevity, most specifically the headgasket.

Attached are photos of a VQ37VHR block prepped for a wet sleeve install, and a wet sleeve before installation.

If anyone wants a wet sleeve setup, I am practically next door to the guy who does the wet sleeves for most powerful GT-Rs, and as you can see from the photo, he has VHR experience as well now

Is there a reliable head gasket option for high horsepower built blocks?

bullitt5897 · 05-06-2015, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwick

Is there a reliable head gasket option for high horsepower built blocks?

Cometic or OEM... I think we used cometic for my block but cant remember at the moment.

phunk · 05-06-2015, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwick

Is there a reliable head gasket option for high horsepower built blocks?

Cosworth has HR/VHR headgaskets which I *believe* are manufactured by Cometic for Cosworth USA.

These are the gaskets I am going to try out on this build. My favorites have classically been HKS gaskets, but they only have DE style gaskets for the VQ.

What is very important is that you get proper head bolt or stud clamping force. This was the biggest problem for built DE's for a while, and cost the community a ton of money and gave VQ's a terrible name for high power. Everyone was using the standard ARP2000 head studs which had too low of a torque spec to hold up in the 500s and 600s, and head lift was a big problem. Nobody quite understood at first because it felt like the headstuds wouldnt be the issue after having just "upgraded" them. But it turned out it was the problem, and once people got the 1/2" studs done or L19 studs that could handle 90-100lb-ft of torque, the head lift issues and headgasket issues mostly subsided.

The VR engine uses a thread that is 1mm larger diameter than the VQ. Normally you couldnt machine a thread to just 1mm step-up because you wouldnt have removed the old threads yet. But I am pretty sure the PITCH is the same between the two, so very very carefully, it may be possible to oversize the threads up 1mm, but it would be a critical procedure and probably not recommended to bother. But I might try it, maybe. L19s havent been tearing out of the stock threads at high torque, but I would feel better with a larger thread in the block.

jwick · 05-06-2015, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunk

Cosworth has HR/VHR headgaskets which I *believe* are manufactured by Cometic for Cosworth USA.

These are the gaskets I am going to try out on this build. My favorites have classically been HKS gaskets, but they only have DE style gaskets for the VQ.

What is very important is that you get proper head bolt or stud clamping force. This was the biggest problem for built DE's for a while, and cost the community a ton of money and gave VQ's a terrible name for high power. Everyone was using the standard ARP2000 head studs which had too low of a torque spec to hold up in the 500s and 600s, and head lift was a big problem. Nobody quite understood at first because it felt like the headstuds wouldnt be the issue after having just "upgraded" them. But it turned out it was the problem, and once people got the 1/2" studs done or L19 studs that could handle 90-100lb-ft of torque, the head lift issues and headgasket issues mostly subsided.

The VR engine uses a thread that is 1mm larger diameter than the VQ. Normally you couldnt machine a thread to just 1mm step-up because you wouldnt have removed the old threads yet. But I am pretty sure the PITCH is the same between the two, so very very carefully, it may be possible to oversize the threads up 1mm, but it would be a critical procedure and probably not recommended to bother. But I might try it, maybe. L19s havent been tearing out of the stock threads at high torque, but I would feel better with a larger thread in the block.

Really interest to see the outcome of your build and how it holds up over time. I know you pay attention to all the details but will also put the car through the paces to test it out.

Shooting you a PM on options/pricing for my post-summer project.

Elmo370z · 05-06-2015, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunk

When you sleeve a block, you can sleeve it wet or dry. The reference is to whether or not the sleeve is in direct contact with the water.

If you dry sleeve the block, you would basically just be boring it out large enough to eliminate the factory liner and into the aluminum, then you would press in a new, stronger/thicker sleeve.

When you wet sleeve it, you install sleeves that are so large, they are in direct contact with the water around the cylinder. In the VQ, this means removing the entirety of the floating sleeve. Then you press in the new sleeves.

A wet sleeve process is an interesting one, because you go from a block that was essentially one complete unit, to a block that is now just a chassis for individual sleeves that are just resting inside it. You have sacrificed some overall integrity of the foundation for the sake of individual cylinders that can handle much more pressure.

For a VQ block, this sacrifice is minimal since the sleeves were floating anyway, you remove very little of any structural part of the block. You are also adding some sleeve stability since the wet sleeves contact the block horizontally at the deck, when the stock sleeves last touched the block at the base.

There is lots of argument back and forth about the potential side effects of large masses of dissimilar materials when you put these giant ductile iron sleeves into aluminum blocks. There is no argument that the wet sleeved block will hold a LOT more power than the standard VQ block. The argument is to longevity, most specifically the headgasket.

Attached are photos of a VQ37VHR block prepped for a wet sleeve install, and a wet sleeve before installation.

If anyone wants a wet sleeve setup, I am practically next door to the guy who does the wet sleeves for most powerful GT-Rs, and as you can see from the photo, he has VHR experience as well now

Ahh that clears it up a lot more than google. I'm going to keep you in mind when I decide to rebuild my motor and do a dry sump set up to rev 9,000 rpms. As far as longevity what are your thoughts about it? Eventually I will track my car maybe once or twice a year and mostly driving it on the weekends.

phunk · 05-06-2015, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmo370z

Ahh that clears it up a lot more than google. I'm going to keep you in mind when I decide to rebuild my motor and do a dry sump set up to rev 9,000 rpms. As far as longevity what are your thoughts about it? Eventually I will track my car maybe once or twice a year and mostly driving it on the weekends.

I would not do a wet-sleeved block with longevity in-mind.. I would do it for high power cars being used for drag racing, roll racing, standing mile, and other acceleration contest.

For road racing, I wouldnt do the wet sleeves... not to mention, I dont think the power of a road racing car is going to touch on the power where wet-sleeves would be in the discussion. Imagine trying to track a 1000rwhp 370z... that would make a great video but it would probably lose to 350rwhp all motor cars with good drivers.

I wouldnt put wet-sleeves on the discussion table unless we are talking about 800+ rwhp.

bullitt5897 · 05-06-2015, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunk

I would not do a wet-sleeved block with longevity in-mind.. I would do it for high power cars being used for drag racing, roll racing, standing mile, and other acceleration contest.

For road racing, I wouldnt do the wet sleeves... not to mention, I dont think the power of a road racing car is going to touch on the power where wet-sleeves would be in the discussion. Imagine trying to track a 1000rwhp 370z... that would make a great video but it would probably lose to 350rwhp all motor cars with good drivers.

I wouldnt put wet-sleeves on the discussion table unless we are talking about 800+ rwhp.

Couldnt agree more! You wont be seeing me push my car at the road course... I may take it to play with the wife (in her nismo) but I wont be pushing it. a 1000hp car on a road course turns into this:

Gas down the straights >>>> Break like hell!!!>>>> Coast through turn>>>> Gas down Straight... Rinse and repeat... you do not gas a 1000hp car mid turn... because wherever that nose is pointed when you hit the gas is where that car is going...

BGTV8 · 05-06-2015, 01:45 AM

Google is your friend ....

Example of wet liner removal to give you an idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXd6-b1PQJ4

Lots of other references ...

05-05-2015, 09:54 AM	#1 (permalink)
Mitco39 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada Posts: 2,089 Drives: 40th 370z Rep Power: 132	VHR Billet Block Looking to do a build and was wondering if anyone has or knows of anyone with a billet block for our cars? I see that GTM was experimenting with it (not sure if they are still around or what their status is). But just wondering if there is anything else out there? Been told that by a reputable shop that our block doesnt like to push high hp numbers for any real period of time. Basically looking to do this in such a way to ensure maximum reliability with the most amount of power and it seems like a new block is the best way to do this. Thanks Mitch __________________ 2007 Chevy Duramax - EFILive Tuned By Me 2010 40th W/ Nav - Boosted Performance - UpRev Tuned By Me The Mrs. Ride -2012 335XI N55 BMW - Cobb Tuned By Me, Built by her My Build --> http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...39s-build.html

05-05-2015, 12:54 PM	#2 (permalink)
bullitt5897 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North GA Posts: 6,831 Drives: Twin Turbo Z34 Rep Power: 3683	No one has built one from my knowledge. It would be very expensive as well.... And coming from me that says ALOT! lol Infiniti370z likes this. __________________ *Shop Cars: 2013 318whp Nismo VspecII 370z SOLD, 2009 1000hp+ 93oct 4.0L TT 370z Fast Intentions STAGE 4 #054*

05-05-2015, 02:38 PM	#4 (permalink)
phunk A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,669 Drives: 370 Rep Power: 974724	A billet block is a pretty serious ordeal.. if you purchased one, you would be doing all the testing too - so you might find a host of unpleasant surprises along the way. Most the GT-Rs do a wet sleeve setup. The VR block is more robust than a VHR from the factory, but once they have both been hogged out for wet sleeves, you probably end up with a pretty similar result. Even those wet sleeved VR blocks dont last forever though. I know that most of the 1500+ hp GT-Rs will destroy their engine each event, which is why they bring spare engines or only do 1 or 2 passes before loading back up. GaleForce likes this. __________________ Charles @ CJ Motorsports : Website \| Facebook \| Instagram \| YouTube Home of the 9 second, stock longblock, stock drivetrain 6MT 370z. 9.91 @ 142mph

05-05-2015, 03:11 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mitco39 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada Posts: 2,089 Drives: 40th 370z Rep Power: 132	Decision decisions... Thanks Charles, ill be sure to come to you for any upgrades that i'll need! Much appreciated. phunk and GaleForce like this. __________________ 2007 Chevy Duramax - EFILive Tuned By Me 2010 40th W/ Nav - Boosted Performance - UpRev Tuned By Me The Mrs. Ride -2012 335XI N55 BMW - Cobb Tuned By Me, Built by her My Build --> http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...39s-build.html

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