Alignment question with toe??? Help?

synolimit · 02-04-2014, 02:14 PM

Got an alignment today. The guys all seemed kind of new at this and didn't know their machine to well. All toe numbers I've seen before are in a measurement of length. These guys had theirs in degrees. I need to know if the degrees will convert to length because I have to make a new rear toe lockout plate that can move the toe on the right rear. If I knew how far off it was I could measure and drill the hole from where the plates at now. I have no idea what 0.46* is. The little numbers for what spec is, is 0.23* to 0.08*. Based off of other guys I've seen their specs say 1/8th to 1/16th. So I'm guessing these degree numbers fall within the length numbers I just said but again no idea how much I should make the new hole off center. Any ideas????

Another question was I hope I got the toe going in the right direction. If you look at the front right toe before you see it says -0.05* and if you look at the black arrow its pointing to the right side of the center line. But to me that should be toe out or positive 0.05*. The other side is the opposite. Its a positive but the black arrows on the inside of the center line.

But that's not what worries me. It's the after that does. I was going by the black arrow again so I made the front 0.08* toe out or the black arrow going more outside of the center line. I know its hard to see in the pic but trust me, the black arrow is more outside than inside on both front toes. But you can see with the black arrow on the outside its not a negative number like it was before on the right, and it's still a positive number on the left even though the black arrow is now on the outside of the center line vs the inside on the before. I'm not sure what to believe. O and since the black arrows are more outside and the numbers are 0.08, that should be out of spec since going outwards the spec says 0.04 max.

O and one last thing. I measured my wheels on the left side and right side from front to back. The guy messed with the traction arms which will move the wheels forward and back, and the right side is 2/16th longer. So I need to fix that so both sides are equal.

SPOHN · 02-04-2014, 05:59 PM

Yea I know your struggle. I only do string alignments now. And after having my buddy set my car up this way and teaching me how to. It's easy and free now. I don't trust a computer alignment that has to be calibrated regularly and bases alignment from side to side combined. Who's to say it's ever even right?

With a string alignment it's always based on length for each corner and when the time is taken the toe comes out dead on. A well known shop told me the that there success in racing comes from string alignments and a great driver. Course they set each alignment up for each track. Mine is balanced between three tracks in which most have right hand turns.

TVPostSound · 02-04-2014, 07:27 PM

Hunter measures toe in as a positive.
So negative toe in is positive.
Double negative.

.46 degrees is about 1/2"

TVPostSound · 02-04-2014, 07:30 PM

I agree with string alignments, if done right!!

gomer_110 · 02-04-2014, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPOHN

Yea I know your struggle. I only do string alignments now. And after having my buddy set my car up this way and teaching me how to. It's easy and free now. I don't trust a computer alignment that has to be calibrated regularly and bases alignment from side to side combined. Who's to say it's ever even right?

With a string alignment it's always based on length for each corner and when the time is taken the toe comes out dead on. A well known shop told me the that there success in racing comes from string alignments and a great driver. Course they set each alignment up for each track. Mine is balanced between three tracks in which most have right hand turns.

Any pics of your Z strung up? Specifically how and where you're attaching the strings to.

SPOHN · 02-04-2014, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomer_110

Any pics of your Z strung up? Specifically how and where you're attaching the strings to.

I didnt take pics. We used jack stands with precise measurements. But I'll be buying simple tools to make setup faster. Plus I have a lift so it makes it quick and easy by itself. It's all about the setup being perfect from side to side. I also have a book on this. I was tired of spending $100-$175 per alignment. It's really easy after you understand it. Camber is even easier.

synolimit · 02-04-2014, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPOHN

Yea I know your struggle. I only do string alignments now. And after having my buddy set my car up this way and teaching me how to. It's easy and free now. I don't trust a computer alignment that has to be calibrated regularly and bases alignment from side to side combined. Who's to say it's ever even right?

With a string alignment it's always based on length for each corner and when the time is taken the toe comes out dead on. A well known shop told me the that there success in racing comes from string alignments and a great driver. Course they set each alignment up for each track. Mine is balanced between three tracks in which most have right hand turns.

Only issue I see with string is if you make toe whatever you want, couldn't your tires be facing off to the side and not straight? It'd think toe would be best measured if you did the string from tire to center line of the car and not tire to tire.

synolimit · 02-04-2014, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

Hunter measures toe in as a positive.
So negative toe in is positive.
Double negative.

.46 degrees is about 1/2"

We'll forget the negative or positive, what about the black arrows? The front at 0.08*, the black arrows are slightly out to the side of that center line. You're saying that should be negative, but it's showing a positive. So what gives? Do I trust the arrow or the -/+ sign?

The rear are clear as day showing inward of center line and showing a + number.

No way 0.46* is equal to length. You can see the before was only -1.7 camber and now its -1.8, yet the toe moved 0.21*. He only moved the camber adjustment like a 1/4 turn. I'd find it hard to believe a 1/4 turn on camber moves your toe 1/2". Hell that'd mean if I wanted -1.5 camber, I'd need to move a toe bolt or SPL toe arm 1.5 inches!

synolimit · 02-04-2014, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPOHN

I didnt take pics. We used jack stands with precise measurements. But I'll be buying simple tools to make setup faster. Plus I have a lift so it makes it quick and easy by itself. It's all about the setup being perfect from side to side. I also have a book on this. I was tired of spending $100-$175 per alignment. It's really easy after you understand it. Camber is even easier.

Iphone app? Haha

You can see my phone worked good on the right side. I wanted -1.7 and got it. But the phone moves calibration all the time so some how I wanted -1.7 left side but got -1.3. However, I was not sitting in the car so maybe that loss of 160lbs messed up what I wanted at home. At the shop I was sitting in the car hence the -1.3 instead.

gomer_110 · 02-04-2014, 11:26 PM

Someone needs to make a string alignment jig like this for the Z, one for the front and one for the rear.

1slow370 · 02-05-2014, 12:46 AM

angle toe is a much better way to measure toe as the numbers don't change, if you measure toe in inches wtf does that really mean, if you measure toe at the rim, then any change in rim diameter changes the numbers, the bigger the wheel the further away from center it's edge will be resulting in bigger numbers. that is why the alignment industry is moving toward angle toe measurements. A good example is the model T, it had 4 different toe specifications depending on where you took the measurements, there is a contact patch bottom of rim, contact patch axle height spec, center sidewall bottom of rim, center sidewall at the axle spec and all of them give you different numbers so you can convert the angle to distance with simple trig but where would you like the distance to be measured from?

1slow370 · 02-05-2014, 01:07 AM

also the angle on your print out is gonna be in relation to factory specs which are rear toe in .09-.21 degrees front toe in .05-.11 degrees. From the rim at axle height, your right rear tire on a 19" rim(measured 10" from wheel center) needs to be toed out .054" to correct it to center of range. If you are on 18" wheels(9.5" from center) then you only need to move it .051".

an 1/8" total on a 14" rim civic to an 1/8" on a 19" rim Z is a difference at each wheel of .06 degrees(civic-.239 / z-.179)

The math for you is sin((current wheel angle)-(desired wheel angle)) x (rim radius) = distance you need to move the rim of the wheel to correct it.

synolimit · 02-05-2014, 01:26 AM

So whats that mean for me? If I want zero toe rear, slight toe out front what do I do?

Your degree numbers are different than what Hunter is saying. But you said those numbers off a 19" wheel. He out in the Hunter I have 18's. So I'm assuming that's why mine are different than what you said? Doesn't really matter though since I know what I want. I could care less about what the specs are.

1slow370 · 02-05-2014, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

So whats that mean for me? If I want zero toe rear, slight toe out front what do I do?

Your degree numbers are different than what Hunter is saying. But you said those numbers off a 19" wheel. He out in the Hunter I have 18's. So I'm assuming that's why mine are different than what you said? Doesn't really matter though since I know what I want. I could care less about what the specs are.

As I said earlier rim size does NOT affect angle measurements just distance measurements

Nope my spec numbers are from the factory manual hunters are wrong, that or it was a different type of alignment test and they fudged the numbers to get the alignment to actually be the same as factory (nissan says the car should be tested in unladden condition on a thrust type alignment machine) if you want them to set 0 toe rear then have them align the rear wheels to 0 degrees, slight toe out in the front on that machine would be -.05 to -.11

in the factory manual the front toe is IN 3minutes to IN 7 minutes

synolimit · 02-05-2014, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

As I said earlier rim size does NOT affect angle measurements just distance measurements

Nope my spec numbers are from the factory manual hunters are wrong, that or it was a different type of alignment test and they fudged the numbers to get the alignment to actually be the same as factory (nissan says the car should be tested in unladden condition on a thrust type alignment machine) if you want them to set 0 toe rear then have them align the rear wheels to 0 degrees, slight toe out in the front on that machine would be -.05 to -.11

in the factory manual the front toe is IN 3minutes to IN 7 minutes

Yes I heard you. I said I wonder if that's where the different spec numbers are coming from. But I'm sure now seeing what you wrote that you're right that Hunter is wrong as I've seen several different spec numbers from people posting pics up.

As for rear toe going to zero, how much do you think I need to adjust the offset hole on the new plates? As you can see in my pics, the current offset holes can go about a 1/8th more inward before it's maxed out. Any idea what 0.18* is in length? I'd rather not mess with that plate so I might just leave it the way it is. As for the right at 0.46* I know for sure I'll be moving that hole over in the plate.

As for the front. You say go negative in numbers. But why then is the black arrows pointing more outward already? I watched as he did it individually on the screen and he did -0.03* but when it was over and the computer printed out the specs they now both so +0.08*.

Left

Right. The glare is hiding the washer. This side isn't more inward on the plate, it just looks that way.

02-04-2014, 02:14 PM	#1 (permalink)
synolimit A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2013 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 5,051 Drives: 2013 Silver 370z Rep Power: 3389	Alignment question with toe??? Help? Got an alignment today. The guys all seemed kind of new at this and didn't know their machine to well. All toe numbers I've seen before are in a measurement of length. These guys had theirs in degrees. I need to know if the degrees will convert to length because I have to make a new rear toe lockout plate that can move the toe on the right rear. If I knew how far off it was I could measure and drill the hole from where the plates at now. I have no idea what 0.46* is. The little numbers for what spec is, is 0.23* to 0.08. Based off of other guys I've seen their specs say 1/8th to 1/16th. So I'm guessing these degree numbers fall within the length numbers I just said but again no idea how much I should make the new hole off center. Any ideas???? Another question was I hope I got the toe going in the right direction. If you look at the front right toe before you see it says -0.05 and if you look at the black arrow its pointing to the right side of the center line. But to me that should be toe out or positive 0.05. The other side is the opposite. Its a positive but the black arrows on the inside of the center line. But that's not what worries me. It's the after that does. I was going by the black arrow again so I made the front 0.08 toe out or the black arrow going more outside of the center line. I know its hard to see in the pic but trust me, the black arrow is more outside than inside on both front toes. But you can see with the black arrow on the outside its not a negative number like it was before on the right, and it's still a positive number on the left even though the black arrow is now on the outside of the center line vs the inside on the before. I'm not sure what to believe. O and since the black arrows are more outside and the numbers are 0.08, that should be out of spec since going outwards the spec says 0.04 max. O and one last thing. I measured my wheels on the left side and right side from front to back. The guy messed with the traction arms which will move the wheels forward and back, and the right side is 2/16th longer. So I need to fix that so both sides are equal. __________________ 13 370z- Last edited by synolimit; 02-04-2014 at 02:32 PM.

02-04-2014, 05:59 PM	#2 (permalink)
SPOHN A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Covington, GA Age: 45 Posts: 14,844 Drives: Waiting on next Z Rep Power: 221	Yea I know your struggle. I only do string alignments now. And after having my buddy set my car up this way and teaching me how to. It's easy and free now. I don't trust a computer alignment that has to be calibrated regularly and bases alignment from side to side combined. Who's to say it's ever even right? With a string alignment it's always based on length for each corner and when the time is taken the toe comes out dead on. A well known shop told me the that there success in racing comes from string alignments and a great driver. Course they set each alignment up for each track. Mine is balanced between three tracks in which most have right hand turns. Initial Z likes this. __________________

02-04-2014, 11:26 PM	#10 (permalink)
gomer_110 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Perrysburg, OH Posts: 17,992 Drives: '11 Nismo #528 GM Rep Power: 36941	Someone needs to make a string alignment jig like this for the Z, one for the front and one for the rear. __________________ '11 370Z Nismo #528 Fast Intentions \| Stillen \| Motordyne \| Uprev \| CSF \| Zspeed \| Z1 Motorsports \| AST \| Swift \| SPC \| SPL \| Whiteline \| Hotchkis \| Bride \| Schroth \| Robispec \| Cusco \| Nismo \| Volk \| Forgestar \| Hoosier \| RJM '17 Titan Bone Stock

02-05-2014, 12:46 AM	#11 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	angle toe is a much better way to measure toe as the numbers don't change, if you measure toe in inches wtf does that really mean, if you measure toe at the rim, then any change in rim diameter changes the numbers, the bigger the wheel the further away from center it's edge will be resulting in bigger numbers. that is why the alignment industry is moving toward angle toe measurements. A good example is the model T, it had 4 different toe specifications depending on where you took the measurements, there is a contact patch bottom of rim, contact patch axle height spec, center sidewall bottom of rim, center sidewall at the axle spec and all of them give you different numbers so you can convert the angle to distance with simple trig but where would you like the distance to be measured from? __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50 Last edited by 1slow370; 02-05-2014 at 12:48 AM.

02-05-2014, 01:07 AM	#12 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	also the angle on your print out is gonna be in relation to factory specs which are rear toe in .09-.21 degrees front toe in .05-.11 degrees. From the rim at axle height, your right rear tire on a 19" rim(measured 10" from wheel center) needs to be toed out .054" to correct it to center of range. If you are on 18" wheels(9.5" from center) then you only need to move it .051". an 1/8" total on a 14" rim civic to an 1/8" on a 19" rim Z is a difference at each wheel of .06 degrees(civic-.239 / z-.179) The math for you is sin((current wheel angle)-(desired wheel angle)) x (rim radius) = distance you need to move the rim of the wheel to correct it. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50 Last edited by 1slow370; 02-05-2014 at 01:35 AM.

02-04-2014, 07:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
TVPostSound Base Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Granada Hills Posts: 73 Drives: 2010G37 AKA 370Z 2+2 Rep Power: 13	Hunter measures toe in as a positive. So negative toe in is positive. Double negative. .46 degrees is about 1/2"

02-04-2014, 07:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
TVPostSound Base Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Granada Hills Posts: 73 Drives: 2010G37 AKA 370Z 2+2 Rep Power: 13	I agree with string alignments, if done right!!

02-05-2014, 01:26 AM	#13 (permalink)
synolimit A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2013 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 5,051 Drives: 2013 Silver 370z Rep Power: 3389	So whats that mean for me? If I want zero toe rear, slight toe out front what do I do? Your degree numbers are different than what Hunter is saying. But you said those numbers off a 19" wheel. He out in the Hunter I have 18's. So I'm assuming that's why mine are different than what you said? Doesn't really matter though since I know what I want. I could care less about what the specs are. __________________ 13 370z- Last edited by synolimit; 02-05-2014 at 01:29 AM.

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