Rear essentric lockout bolt kit?

phunk · 08-28-2013, 04:18 PM

I guess I was confused by thinking that your goal was to make eccentric bolts, rather then eliminate them. But it appears that you want to do full alignment adjustment using adjustable length arms without any adjustment available in the bolts.

In my experience, that is not ideal... but I am no suspension expert. From my experience, you want both arms to be exactly the same length, so that your compression alignment is symmetrical. This would mean finding an ideal control arm length that puts you within the range of adjustment for your eccentric bolts.

synolimit · 08-28-2013, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh0velMan

By making the hole not round... slotted, in other words. See what I mean?

Gotcha, cause the sub frame is slotted to match. Yeah ill just let the arms do all the work when I get them. Fingers crossed I don't need to buy them at all haha. Wishful thinking, after swift instal ill be like -2 front, -1, -1.5 rear, zero toe all around.

synolimit · 08-28-2013, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunk

I guess I was confused by thinking that your goal was to make eccentric bolts, rather then eliminate them. But it appears that you want to do full alignment adjustment using adjustable length arms without any adjustment available in the bolts.

In my experience, that is not ideal... but I am no suspension expert. From my experience, you want both arms to be exactly the same length, so that your compression alignment is symmetrical. This would mean finding an ideal control arm length that puts you within the range of adjustment for your eccentric bolts.

I guess I'm confused. Stock, the only adjustment is in the bolt, arms should be identical length. Now the only adjustment will be in the arm. I "guess" something could happen if I try to achieve say -1.5 rear camber on both sides and one arm ends up being longer than the other to achieve that camber, but I don't think ill see the inssue. I mean right now my drivers is a half a degree further in than the passenger with no issue (of course the arms are same length). For me I doubt ill experience anything if one arms maybe a few millimeters longer or shorter than the other. More importantly the settings will be identical.

phunk · 08-28-2013, 10:46 PM

Your settings when your sitting level are only a small part of the picture. When your suspension compresses your alignment changes. When the car is lowered and the control arm angles are altered, it's gets very dramatic. Different arm length changes the sweep and therefore effects how much it changes from compression. The changes apply to both camber and toe. If one side toes more then the other on compression, you will notice. I made the mistake of trusting an alignment shop to do it their way and they setup my 350z with just the arm lengths. Sure, it looks great on paper.. Until the rear end squat, and my car would veer hard left every time I floored it.

synolimit · 08-29-2013, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunk

Your settings when your sitting level are only a small part of the picture. When your suspension compresses your alignment changes. When the car is lowered and the control arm angles are altered, it's gets very dramatic. Different arm length changes the sweep and therefore effects how much it changes from compression. The changes apply to both camber and toe. If one side toes more then the other on compression, you will notice. I made the mistake of trusting an alignment shop to do it their way and they setup my 350z with just the arm lengths. Sure, it looks great on paper.. Until the rear end squat, and my car would veer hard left every time I floored it.

Hmm. Well here's to hoping the bodies straight and true along with the arms being identical.

synolimit · 08-29-2013, 12:51 AM

Just to ask one question, if having arms at different lengths is bad and could happen during an alignment, why does SPL sell the lockout kit then?

phunk · 08-29-2013, 01:19 PM

I will sell ya one too if you want

bad is relative. In my 350z, I didnt really notice the unequal arm length except when I put the stock springs in the back with 15" wheels and drag slicks. The traction combined with soft spring rate gave the suspension a ton of travel, so I could really feel the effects on compression toe making the car veer left under throttle then right when I let off (probably due to my right counter-steering). It was bad enough that it took me a few practice runs counter-steering to keep the car in my lane.

That said, my 350z may have been an extreme example of what can happen. That car, having never been in any accident or anything, was not a very true chassis. The passenger side wheel/tire sticks out from the fender more as if the wheel was a more aggressive offset by a VERY noticeable amount.

So I would have to say that I might be getting too sensitive about the issue.. I only know that in mechanical theory, it makes a difference. But in practice, with my limited suspension setup experience, it may take a very extreme case before the effects are noticeable to the driver.

Sh0velMan · 08-29-2013, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunk

I will sell ya one too if you want

bad is relative. In my 350z, I didnt really notice the unequal arm length except when I put the stock springs in the back with 15" wheels and drag slicks. The traction combined with soft spring rate gave the suspension a ton of travel, so I could really feel the effects on compression toe making the car veer left under throttle then right when I let off (or at least it felt like it was veering right cause i had to steer to the right while on the throttle). It was bad enough that it took me a few practice runs over counter-steering to keep the car in my lane.

That said, my 350z may have been an extreme example of what can happen. That car, having never been in any accident or anything, was not a very true chassis. The passenger side wheel/tire sticks out from the fender more as if the wheel was a more aggressive offset by a VERY noticeable amount.

So I would have to say that I might be getting to sensitive about the issue.. I only know that in mechanical theory, it is incorrect to do. But in practice, with my limited suspension setup experience, it may take a very extreme case before the effects are noticeable to the driver.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the large amount of travel comment.

With a track prepped car, the suspension travel is reduced significantly from stock, to say nothing of a drag setup.

I would imagine that pro race shops (Like Doran) probably manufacture their lockout hardware taking these issues into account so that they have proper positioning as a "base" rather than using an eccentric to adjust it, if you understand what I'm saying. Then, they just use the adjustable arms to zero in the settings over the life of the car.

phunk · 08-29-2013, 01:33 PM

If guys like them are doing it, I should probably step away before they come in here and school me

I am over-stepping my personal experience by trying to get into a suspension theory argument... but I am studying it a lot lately since I have some special needs of my own that I am trying to resolve!

Sh0velMan · 08-29-2013, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunk

If guys like them are doing it, I should probably step away before they come in here and school me

I am over-stepping my personal experience by trying to get into a suspension theory argument... but I am studying it a lot lately since I have some special needs of my own that I am trying to resolve!

Hehe, you and me both! They definitely lock them out. Here's a photo I took @ COTA of the Doran car's backside

( Click to show/hide )

synolimit · 08-29-2013, 04:26 PM

^^^^. Nice!!

Well I just finished. Total about $9 since I bought 4 more nuts since these nuts aren't lock nuts like the OEM ones are, so I doubled them up. The camber is now, drivers side -1.7 and passenger -1.2. So by adding the locket kit I made, I lost -0.2 camber on both sides which is fine till i get the arms because its still within spec and better for not eating up tires. Overall goal will be -2 to -1.5 so the arms should be pretty close in length if I go -1.5. Any suggestions for street and track rear camber?

The final toe is 0.125. Again within factory spec but that's the max amount of toe (1/8th"). I guess at this point I need to install the swifts and check again down the road once they settle. Fingers crossed I only need to buy camber arms.

PS, the exhaust didn't fit after i installed resonators so I made some slits in the pipe to bend it in the directions I needed and then welded the cuts. I only had regular mig wire so hence the black exhaust paint to protect from rusting.

TVPostSound · 09-02-2013, 08:19 AM

Read this:

Customized SPL camber and toe lockout plates. - MyG37

synolimit · 09-02-2013, 11:35 AM

Soooo...you're saying on a different car after springs ill need to off center the toe plates or ill be out of spec?

synolimit · 01-12-2014, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

Soooo...you're saying on a different car after springs ill need to off center the toe plates or ill be out of spec?

So installed springs today. I got SPL traction arms and camber arms. Initial thoughts are the traction arms may not get me to zero toe. Looks like ill flip the lockout plates to find the best offset to get more toe or make new ones with more offset.

TVPostSound · 01-12-2014, 11:08 AM

Here's my setup:

Customized SPL camber and toe lockout plates. - MyG37

08-28-2013, 04:18 PM	#31 (permalink)
phunk A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,668 Drives: 370 Rep Power: 974723	I guess I was confused by thinking that your goal was to make eccentric bolts, rather then eliminate them. But it appears that you want to do full alignment adjustment using adjustable length arms without any adjustment available in the bolts. In my experience, that is not ideal... but I am no suspension expert. From my experience, you want both arms to be exactly the same length, so that your compression alignment is symmetrical. This would mean finding an ideal control arm length that puts you within the range of adjustment for your eccentric bolts. __________________ Charles @ CJ Motorsports : Website \| Facebook \| Instagram \| YouTube Home of the 9 second, stock longblock, stock drivetrain 6MT 370z. 9.91 @ 142mph Last edited by phunk; 08-28-2013 at 06:25 PM.

08-28-2013, 10:46 PM	#34 (permalink)
phunk A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,668 Drives: 370 Rep Power: 974723	Your settings when your sitting level are only a small part of the picture. When your suspension compresses your alignment changes. When the car is lowered and the control arm angles are altered, it's gets very dramatic. Different arm length changes the sweep and therefore effects how much it changes from compression. The changes apply to both camber and toe. If one side toes more then the other on compression, you will notice. I made the mistake of trusting an alignment shop to do it their way and they setup my 350z with just the arm lengths. Sure, it looks great on paper.. Until the rear end squat, and my car would veer hard left every time I floored it. __________________ Charles @ CJ Motorsports : Website \| Facebook \| Instagram \| YouTube Home of the 9 second, stock longblock, stock drivetrain 6MT 370z. 9.91 @ 142mph Last edited by phunk; 08-28-2013 at 10:53 PM.

08-29-2013, 12:51 AM	#36 (permalink)
synolimit A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2013 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 5,051 Drives: 2013 Silver 370z Rep Power: 3389	Just to ask one question, if having arms at different lengths is bad and could happen during an alignment, why does SPL sell the lockout kit then? __________________ 13 370z-

08-29-2013, 01:19 PM	#37 (permalink)
phunk A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,668 Drives: 370 Rep Power: 974723	I will sell ya one too if you want bad is relative. In my 350z, I didnt really notice the unequal arm length except when I put the stock springs in the back with 15" wheels and drag slicks. The traction combined with soft spring rate gave the suspension a ton of travel, so I could really feel the effects on compression toe making the car veer left under throttle then right when I let off (probably due to my right counter-steering). It was bad enough that it took me a few practice runs counter-steering to keep the car in my lane. That said, my 350z may have been an extreme example of what can happen. That car, having never been in any accident or anything, was not a very true chassis. The passenger side wheel/tire sticks out from the fender more as if the wheel was a more aggressive offset by a VERY noticeable amount. So I would have to say that I might be getting too sensitive about the issue.. I only know that in mechanical theory, it makes a difference. But in practice, with my limited suspension setup experience, it may take a very extreme case before the effects are noticeable to the driver. __________________ Charles @ CJ Motorsports : Website \| Facebook \| Instagram \| YouTube Home of the 9 second, stock longblock, stock drivetrain 6MT 370z. 9.91 @ 142mph Last edited by phunk; 08-29-2013 at 01:30 PM.

08-29-2013, 01:33 PM	#39 (permalink)
phunk A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,668 Drives: 370 Rep Power: 974723	If guys like them are doing it, I should probably step away before they come in here and school me I am over-stepping my personal experience by trying to get into a suspension theory argument... but I am studying it a lot lately since I have some special needs of my own that I am trying to resolve! __________________ Charles @ CJ Motorsports : Website \| Facebook \| Instagram \| YouTube Home of the 9 second, stock longblock, stock drivetrain 6MT 370z. 9.91 @ 142mph

08-29-2013, 04:26 PM	#41 (permalink)
synolimit A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2013 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 5,051 Drives: 2013 Silver 370z Rep Power: 3389	^^^^. Nice!! Well I just finished. Total about $9 since I bought 4 more nuts since these nuts aren't lock nuts like the OEM ones are, so I doubled them up. The camber is now, drivers side -1.7 and passenger -1.2. So by adding the locket kit I made, I lost -0.2 camber on both sides which is fine till i get the arms because its still within spec and better for not eating up tires. Overall goal will be -2 to -1.5 so the arms should be pretty close in length if I go -1.5. Any suggestions for street and track rear camber? The final toe is 0.125. Again within factory spec but that's the max amount of toe (1/8th"). I guess at this point I need to install the swifts and check again down the road once they settle. Fingers crossed I only need to buy camber arms. PS, the exhaust didn't fit after i installed resonators so I made some slits in the pipe to bend it in the directions I needed and then welded the cuts. I only had regular mig wire so hence the black exhaust paint to protect from rusting. __________________ 13 370z-

09-02-2013, 08:19 AM	#42 (permalink)
TVPostSound Base Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Granada Hills Posts: 73 Drives: 2010G37 AKA 370Z 2+2 Rep Power: 13	Read this: Customized SPL camber and toe lockout plates. - MyG37

09-02-2013, 11:35 AM	#43 (permalink)
synolimit A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2013 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 5,051 Drives: 2013 Silver 370z Rep Power: 3389	Soooo...you're saying on a different car after springs ill need to off center the toe plates or ill be out of spec? __________________ 13 370z-

01-12-2014, 11:08 AM	#45 (permalink)
TVPostSound Base Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Granada Hills Posts: 73 Drives: 2010G37 AKA 370Z 2+2 Rep Power: 13	Here's my setup: Customized SPL camber and toe lockout plates. - MyG37

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