Nissan 370Z Forum
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Nissan 370Z Forum (http://www.the370z.com/)
-   Brakes & Suspension (http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspension/)
-   -   Springs "destroying" shocks? (http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspension/38927-springs-destroying-shocks.html)

Amuse370z 06-30-2011 12:37 PM
Springs "destroying" shocks?
 
I'll admit that I'm not the best with cars but is there any truth to what my friend is telling me?

I was thinking of buying Swift springs because of the great reviews, my friend, who drives an SI says that springs "destroys" shocks and that coilovers are the way to go.

Econ 06-30-2011 12:55 PM
naive friend is naive

tjlazer 06-30-2011 01:13 PM
The lower the drop on shocks the more it can wear them out. Swift are not that low and you will be fine. Just don't expect to go 150,000 miles on stock shocks with lowering springs...

cheshirecat 06-30-2011 01:34 PM
Swift spings are engineered to be paired with stock shocks. The lower the spring, the more likely it is that they will compress more than the stock shock is engineered to handle, which can lead to seals breaking and the shock "blowing out".

If you get Swifts, don't worry about it.

Your friend is borderline retarded. I would bring this up to his parents.

cossie1600 06-30-2011 01:59 PM
it depends on the spring. if the spring rate is high, it would blow out the shock quickly as the stock shock cant keep up with it. your friend is partially correct, no more retarded than some of the responses.

dP3NGU1N 06-30-2011 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshirecat (Post 1197465)
Swift spings are engineered to be paired with stock shocks. The lower the spring, the more likely it is that they will compress more than the stock shock is engineered to handle, which can lead to seals breaking and the shock "blowing out".

If you get Swifts, don't worry about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjlazer (Post 1197418)
The lower the drop on shocks the more it can wear them out. Swift are not that low and you will be fine. Just don't expect to go 150,000 miles on stock shocks with lowering springs...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cossie1600 (Post 1197517)
it depends on the spring. if the spring rate is high, it would blow out the shock quickly as the stock shock cant keep up with it. your friend is partially correct, no more retarded than some of the responses.
:iagree: Sounds to me like the friend is generally correct. The only thing is that he doesn't know about swift springs so threw out a blanket statement to possibly save his friend some grief.

@cheshire: I don't see how he's retarded, perhaps people should inform your parents that you're a bigot and jump to conclusions about people from third party hearsay. His friend gave safe-than-sorry advice.

kenchan 06-30-2011 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cossie1600 (Post 1197517)
it depends on the spring. if the spring rate is high, it would blow out the shock quickly as the stock shock cant keep up with it. your friend is partially correct, no more retarded than some of the responses.
:icon18: very blunt yet :iagree:

cheshirecat 06-30-2011 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dP3NGU1N (Post 1197592)
@cheshire: I don't see how he's retarded, perhaps people should inform your parents that you're a bigot
http://knowyourmeme.com/i/32371/orig...jpg?1262105600

370zFORme!! 06-30-2011 04:00 PM
To shed some light on this situation, I have had Eibach, H and R and Swift springs installed on my 370 and my shocks are still fine after almost 20k miles. If the stock shocks can take the "shock", no pun intended of 3 different springs rates/heights, you will be fine. I also had lowering springs on my scoin tc for like 60K miles and my shocks were fine.

CFZ 06-30-2011 04:08 PM
You wont blow out a shock from high spring rates. Whether the shock is valved for really stiff springs or really soft springs, they use the same seals and shims. In fact stiffer springs would minimize shock movement, and soft springs would obviously increase it. In other words string rate does not affect the life of shocks.

But what does it bottoming out the shock. Swift has already figured out the useable stroke of the shocks for us when developing these springs. Im sure it wont be a problem.

cheshirecat 06-30-2011 04:54 PM
I've destroyed stock 350z shocks with Tanabe GF210's, which are considered an "aggressive" (but not extreme) drop. It can happen- just looks like the 370z shocks are more resistant/tolerant, which is nice.

cossie1600 06-30-2011 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFZ (Post 1197817)
You wont blow out a shock from high spring rates. Whether the shock is valved for really stiff springs or really soft springs, they use the same seals and shims. In fact stiffer springs would minimize shock movement, and soft springs would obviously increase it. In other words string rate does not affect the life of shocks.

But what does it bottoming out the shock. Swift has already figured out the useable stroke of the shocks for us when developing these springs. Im sure it wont be a problem.
You are kidding right. Why do you think Bilstein charges $60+ for each shock rebuild. They might use the same seals, but the actual amount of gas or oil and the size of orifice are completely differently. If you ever send your shock in for a rebuild, they would ask you everything from wheel/tire weight to spring rate and all the little stuff. When your spring rate goes up 20-30% harder/quicker over what the shocks are designed for, what do you think absorbs the impact along with the spring? The stiffer spring rate effects the compression and the rebound stroke as the shock has to work much harder/quicker to return the shock back to its original position. I have nothing against this particular spring, but it's a fact that you will likely decrease the useful life of the shock simply from doing stuff like that. It could be 1000 miles, it could be 75K miles. You just don't know, but you are shortening the life of this shock by doing it. It's just common sense, the spring is 20-30% stiffer than stock!!!


(STRAIGHT FROM BILSTEIN'S WEBSITE) Interaction between spring and damper
When a car passes over an obstacle, this first has an impact on the spring, which must not be hampered by excessive damping performance on the part of the shock absorber. When a car passes over a bump in the road, for example, the obstacle forces the wheel up into the wheel housing. In the process, the spring is compressed. The shock absorber is now in its compression stage. Once the spring has levelled out the obstacle, the shock absorber has to slow down the movement of the spring as it releases its tension with great force. The shock absorber is now in its rebound stage. Compression stage (compressing of the springs and the damper, e.g. when driving over bumps in the road) = usually approx. 25% of the damping force. Rebound stage (when the spring pulls the damper apart) = usually approx. 75% of the damping force.

Conclusion: A spring with a higher spring rate (sport or lowered spring) will only work at its best in conjunction with the appropriate high-performance or sports shock absorber.

Andy124 07-01-2011 09:34 AM
i am qurious of something...why my friend bought a Swift Spring and he also bought 25mm spacers and 20mm spacers?is it needed for every aftermarket spring or any other explanation?I need to know before i get anything after i bought :)

cheshirecat 07-01-2011 11:01 AM
Spacers aren't needed for the springs. The only time spacers are really needed is if your wheel doesn't clear your brake calipers.

Spacers are mainly just for looks. The performance difference from the wider track is minimal at best.

kenchan 07-01-2011 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshirecat (Post 1199380)
Spacers aren't needed for the springs. The only time spacers are really needed is if your wheel doesn't clear your brake calipers.

Spacers are mainly just for looks. The performance difference from the wider track is minimal at best.
:iagree:



most of the questions have already been asked and answered, i believe. every car forum i go to they ask the same damn questions over and over again. :icon17:

cossie1600 07-01-2011 11:15 AM
here are some 370z specifics

my oil temp is too high
how big of a tire can i use
mustang is fast, but too many people owns it
car too noisy
370 is special because there arent many around

Andy124 07-01-2011 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshirecat (Post 1199380)
Spacers aren't needed for the springs. The only time spacers are really needed is if your wheel doesn't clear your brake calipers.

Spacers are mainly just for looks. The performance difference from the wider track is minimal at best.
beside spacer,any other things needed when dropping a aftermarket springs?

cheshirecat 07-01-2011 12:56 PM
Spacers aren't needed. The only thing you need is patience and the correct tools.

xdeslitx 07-01-2011 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshirecat (Post 1199380)
Spacers aren't needed for the springs. The only time spacers are really needed is if your wheel doesn't clear your brake calipers.

Spacers are mainly just for looks. The performance difference from the wider track is minimal at best.
just personal preference...but it looks pretty nasty without spacers after a drop.
I dropped mine and wasn't planning on spacers but after less than a week, i ended up getting them.

wheee! 07-01-2011 01:08 PM
Buy the Swifts, space as desired, drive car, smile like a madman!

Best performance mod for the money to date on my car.

cheshirecat 07-01-2011 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xdeslitx (Post 1199595)
just personal preference...but it looks pretty nasty without spacers after a drop.
I dropped mine and wasn't planning on spacers but after less than a week, i ended up getting them.
I dunno man, I just don't like the tucked wheels, especially when you have the additional camber from the drop. With the camber evened out it'll probably look great as you say- I just love having the top of the wheel even with the fender.

Pic of mine with the spacers- this is before the 305s went on.

http://i.imgur.com/ESQD2.jpg

xdeslitx 07-01-2011 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshirecat (Post 1199651)
I dunno man, I just don't like the tucked wheels, especially when you have the additional camber from the drop. With the camber evened out it'll probably look great as you say- I just love having the top of the wheel even with the fender.
seems like you need to read what i said over again...i got spacers less than a week after i got the drop

cheshirecat 07-01-2011 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xdeslitx (Post 1199660)
seems like you need to read what i said over again...i got spacers less than a week after i got the drop
you said "just personal preference...but it looks pretty nasty without spacers after a drop."

I disagreed with it looking "nasty" without spacers after a drop, regardless of what you did after the fact.
:confused:

xdeslitx 07-01-2011 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshirecat (Post 1199663)
you said "just personal preference...but it looks pretty nasty without spacers after a drop."

I disagreed with it looking "nasty" without spacers after a drop, regardless of what you did after the fact.
:confused:
nasty as in ugly...and you said you dont like it tucked which is exactly what i was saying when i said it looks nasty without spacers

cheshirecat 07-01-2011 01:35 PM
Aaah. I thought nasty as in good. There you go.

xdeslitx 07-01-2011 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshirecat (Post 1199684)
Aaah. I thought nasty as in good. There you go.
where i come from nasty means nasty...its not backwards day where nasty means a good thing

cheshirecat 07-01-2011 01:41 PM
Well apparently not all of us are from Tujunga, CA, where people eschew such hip phrasing as "nasty" for something that is pleasing to the eye.

ANYWAY. We are in agreement. Back on topic.

kenchan 07-01-2011 01:58 PM
cheshirecat- looking :yum:

cheshirecat 07-01-2011 02:19 PM
are you flirting with me sir

kenchan 07-01-2011 02:22 PM
lol! :D

cheshirecat 07-01-2011 02:38 PM
hahaha. :P

Andy124 07-01-2011 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshirecat (Post 1199651)
I dunno man, I just don't like the tucked wheels, especially when you have the additional camber from the drop. With the camber evened out it'll probably look great as you say- I just love having the top of the wheel even with the fender.

Pic of mine with the spacers- this is before the 305s went on.

http://i.imgur.com/ESQD2.jpg
this is nice and perfect...10mm front and 15mm rear?

kenchan 07-01-2011 04:35 PM
more like 20/25, i thinks...

cheshirecat 07-01-2011 04:42 PM
yep, 20/25.

Vapiano 07-04-2011 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshirecat (Post 1199651)
I dunno man, I just don't like the tucked wheels, especially when you have the additional camber from the drop. With the camber evened out it'll probably look great as you say- I just love having the top of the wheel even with the fender.

Pic of mine with the spacers- this is before the 305s went on.

http://i.imgur.com/ESQD2.jpg
This is the drop I am looking for, did you do just springs only? If so, what brand and specs?

Thanks,

V.

cheshirecat 07-05-2011 07:40 AM
It's swifts with spacers.

whoLEEoh 07-05-2011 10:13 AM
delete post...double post

whoLEEoh 07-05-2011 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Econ (Post 1197392)
naive friend is naive
i guess you dont know much about suspension...yes your shocks will blow prematurely because the spring is shorter and not only that the spring rate is way more aggressive than what the stock shock is valved for. if someone with swift springs last 20-25k miles on them id be surprised.

wheee! 07-05-2011 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoLEEoh (Post 1203828)
i guess you dont know much about suspension...yes your shocks will blow prematurely because the spring is shorter and not only that the spring rate is way more aggressive than what the stock shock is valved for. if someone with swift springs last 20-25k miles on them id be surprised.
Let the games begin! :stirthepot:

CFZ 07-05-2011 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cossie1600 (Post 1198365)
You are kidding right. Why do you think Bilstein charges $60+ for each shock rebuild. They might use the same seals, but the actual amount of gas or oil and the size of orifice are completely differently. If you ever send your shock in for a rebuild, they would ask you everything from wheel/tire weight to spring rate and all the little stuff. When your spring rate goes up 20-30% harder/quicker over what the shocks are designed for, what do you think absorbs the impact along with the spring? The stiffer spring rate effects the compression and the rebound stroke as the shock has to work much harder/quicker to return the shock back to its original position. I have nothing against this particular spring, but it's a fact that you will likely decrease the useful life of the shock simply from doing stuff like that. It could be 1000 miles, it could be 75K miles. You just don't know, but you are shortening the life of this shock by doing it. It's just common sense, the spring is 20-30% stiffer than stock!!!



(STRAIGHT FROM BILSTEIN'S WEBSITE) Interaction between spring and damper
When a car passes over an obstacle, this first has an impact on the spring, which must not be hampered by excessive damping performance on the part of the shock absorber. When a car passes over a bump in the road, for example, the obstacle forces the wheel up into the wheel housing. In the process, the spring is compressed. The shock absorber is now in its compression stage. Once the spring has levelled out the obstacle, the shock absorber has to slow down the movement of the spring as it releases its tension with great force. The shock absorber is now in its rebound stage. Compression stage (compressing of the springs and the damper, e.g. when driving over bumps in the road) = usually approx. 25% of the damping force. Rebound stage (when the spring pulls the damper apart) = usually approx. 75% of the damping force.

Conclusion: A spring with a higher spring rate (sport or lowered spring) will only work at its best in conjunction with the appropriate high-performance or sports shock absorber.
No Im not kidding you.

I dont know why you put up the pricing of the rebuild for, but are you seriously thinking that for a 60 dollar rebuild, they are going to be swapping out entire pistons for you?? No. In other words the orifices are all the same.
Also shock fluid amount is only slightly offset by the thicker shimstacks used for the rebuild.

When you revalve a shock for a certain rate they change and adjust the shim stacks, they try to give the most optimum or the most popular shock characteristics for the rates you are running for a particular vehicle. Sudden impacts on the shock generally do not affect premature wear on the shocks either because shocks have this thing called blowby (blowoff) this is when there is a high speed movement of the shock the valving goes to zero. So in other words if you run over uneven bumps that make sudden impacts in your suspension. This not only saves the shocks from blowing out but also retains traction through uneven surfaces.

The little article you used for your argument explains why you should valve the shock to what ever rate you use for optimum performance. It does NOT support your argument for a shock having a shorter lifespan. In fact nothing you stated does.

Unless you have a pos shock with a completely progressive dyno plot for the shock, it will not affect the shock life.


Thanks


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