What sets one brake setup apart from another?

JoeyD

As far as I know the two main factors to consider when choosing a brake package are weight and heat capacity. I have searched the interwebs high and low trying to find what makes one caliper better than another and one rotor better than the next. I have not come up with a single piece of science that explain to me why a 7K Brembo package (front and rear) is better than the 1.5K Akebono. Much less 5.5K better.

I understand things like SS lines, superior pads, and slotted rotors improve braking but these things can easily be retrofitted on to the Akebono setup for MUCH less than replacing the whole system with Brembo. I hear terminology like "sequentially sized pistons" but no explanation of what it does or why it helps. I hear people mention caliper stability, but I can't imagine one caliper flexes noticeably more than another.

So, who knows brakes, and can explain to me why one brake system outperforms another?

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When was the last time you did 230MPH in something with 4 seats?

ChrisSlicks

The only significant difference is going to be heat capacity and clamping force. The larger 6-piston Brembo's or StopTech's are going to have a higher clamping force which means more stopping power when using large sticky tires. Honestly though I think the Akebono calipers are going to be more than capable for the average guy running track days, just needs a better pad and new brake fluid.

alan93rsa

Let's see:
1. Overall build quality/quality control
2. Caliper material selection/forming - cast, squeeze cast, forged, mono block
3. Multi piston designs
4. Swept area of pad/rotor - friction available
5. Design of the rotor - heat dissipation, cracking, warping, metallurgy
6. Units produced. You can spread out a lot of overhead on a large run of cheap parts.

I think you will find that modulation of the pedal will have a better feel and the pads and rotors will last a bit longer with the upgraded kits.

For the short haul of a few laps at a DE, depending on skill level, you may never see the benefit.

Not to sound like a broken record but installing Motul RBF 600 along with a good set of pads for the track may suit your needs just fine.

I'm heading for Mid-Ohio this Friday with the sports package, Carbotech XP10/XP8 F/R and a fresh flush with Motul RBF 600.

I think the lack of oil cooling will shut me down WAY before a braking issue.

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16 Cayman GT4, Carmine Red, Buckets, PCCB etc.

JoeyD

^ Good information in the list; however...

1) Build quality (good enough is good enough and the Akebono seem to have no problems there)
2)Again good enough is good enough. Obviously a lighter caliper means less unsprung weight but the differences in weight are negligible from one caliper to the next of similar design (IE # of pistons).
3) I assume more pistons means that heat and force can be spread over a larger area. However, if a caliper with 2 pistons has enough force to lock a wheel/tire then it obviously has achieved the maximum brake horse power. So if a 4 piston can lock the wheel as fast a 6 piston I see no performance benefit in the extra pistons.
4)Again pads can be interchanged on any brake system. so area is all that matters.
5)Rotors can be relatively cheaply replaced and therefor I don't see them as a significant cost/performance factor.
6) This one is very true. However, if one system has been made in the 10s of thousands and the other in limited runs, but both perform similarly I don't see the reason to spend all the money on the limited one. I'm not in to spending 5.5k (probably more like 4.5K when pads/lines/rotors are upgraded) for a nice color caliper and little noticable performance gain.

I would like to see this test. 4 370Zs all identical except for brakes.
1)370Z Base+Sports
2)370Z Base+Sports+Upgraded Pads/lines/fluids/and rotors.
3)Brembo Equiped 370Z+Sports
4)AP Racing Equiped 370Z+Sports

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When was the last time you did 230MPH in something with 4 seats?

sensi09

Have you seen this test Testing Brakes with StopTech

Not much to add to what has already been mentioned, but for some of the lower priced BBKs, pad selection can be an issue.

alan93rsa

Most stock brake systems will lock up the tires. The question is will they still be doing that on lap 30?

Modern caliper design includes little things like changing the angle on the pistons and size of the pistons on the caliper to equalize force on the pad and wear.

Bottom line if your opinion of a good brake is it's ability to lock a tire then you won't have any trouble finding a good set of brakes

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16 Cayman GT4, Carmine Red, Buckets, PCCB etc.

JoeyD

^That's kind of the point of the thread; To determine what makes one brake setup better than another.

The StopTech article was very helpful. However, I still don't see a need to drop the better part of 10K on a four wheel brake setup that will doubtably ever be tested.

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When was the last time you did 230MPH in something with 4 seats?

wstar

Speaking of brakes, has anyone released braided brake lines that are known to fit our car yet? I was kinda waiting on those before I swap my fluid out (figure I'll do it all at once).

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7AT Track Car!
Journal thread / Car setup details

alan93rsa

That is indeed your answer. If you never plan to repeatedly push your braking system then, other than aesthetics, there is no reason to spend the money on the brakes. My guess is you could find numerous other mods that you would enjoy.

Pads, fluid and rotor upgrades will probably fit 90% of the people on this forums needs.

Have fun.

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16 Cayman GT4, Carmine Red, Buckets, PCCB etc.

RCZ

Agreed.

Alan, did you get the g37s application for the carbotechs? I am going to get the same setup.. been planning on it for a while, but I've been caught up in the forward moving bits.

sensi09

If you car was primarily a street car that didn't see the track, would you still switch to the carbotechs?

ChrisSlicks

You wouldn't.

sensi09

Why not? I'm considering the XP8s or XP10s for a daily driver. From reviews, they are still supposed to have good initial bite even when cold. I think I can live with a little more dust and noise.

alan93rsa

RCZ

I was able to get the the ZP10's for the front. They still don't have the blanks for the rears. Apparently their blank supplier is having stamping issues on the rears.

Sensi09

When the manufacturer says they may be noisy they are not kidding. The noise level may be a bit more than you would want to live with. Plus you will have spent $350 to forewarn pedestrians 2 blocks away of your approach.

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16 Cayman GT4, Carmine Red, Buckets, PCCB etc.

rbratton

I don't think you would be happy using the XP10/8 combination on the street. Stopping power wouldn't be an issue, but the sound would be horrible. Keep the carbotechs for the track and just swap in your stock pads for the street. That's what I did for my 350Z. I'm running stock pads at Blue Grass Motorsports Park on May 2nd to see how they hold up, but plan to upgrade to some Carbotechs later.