Cheap & easy brake cooling mod

Philipp · 04-03-2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD-370z

looks good philipp, hopefully it works well, have you ever had ice mode at icar? sessions are twenty minutes there and I only get it on my last two laps there

Good to hear from you!

Never had any braking issues at ICAR. Let me know if you return to that track this summer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPOHN

Check this out. Scroll about half way down. Just a simple plate to bolt up to. I say simple. But could cost more than you would want to pay being there would be some welding involved. Also scroll all the way to the bottum and check out the black end piece attachment that could be had.
Brake cooling ducts - anything new for 2010 - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

They got some nice breaking solution in there. Will definately go that route (welding etc) if this mod deosn't workout!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenchan

really? he probably just used a hole saw like this...

Actually, the exact same kit

...

spearfish25 · 04-03-2011, 06:47 PM

I think this 'small' change will actually have rather profound effects. Given that the air in the wheel well is very stagnant to begin with, that tube will pipe in quite a bit of air which will exit both around the tire and through the wheel (aka past the rotors). While it's not the same as directing air directly to the rotor, I'd put money on it being beneficial with real world significance in temp reduction. The only change I would suggest is to have the cutout positioned higher in the wheel well. The current location is very low and may just have the fresh air sucked down by the low pressure under the car. Perhaps positioning the hole up closer to where that pop rivet holds the liner and then downsizing the tubing to 2" with a further run and turn toward the rotor could improve the design (think 2" PVC from the wheel liner with an elbow rather than flexible ducting). This would give a 'ram air' effect and help direct the air toward the rotor. Just have to downsize enough so the wheel doesn't rub on the pipe.

This won't stop Ice Mode from happening. It WILL reduce brake fade and hopefully stop the dust boots from disintegrating!

Philipp · 04-04-2011, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spearfish25

I think this 'small' change will actually have rather profound effects. Given that the air in the wheel well is very stagnant to begin with, that tube will pipe in quite a bit of air which will exit both around the tire and through the wheel (aka past the rotors). While it's not the same as directing air directly to the rotor, I'd put money on it being beneficial with real world significance in temp reduction. The only change I would suggest is to have the cutout positioned higher in the wheel well. The current location is very low and may just have the fresh air sucked down by the low pressure under the car. Perhaps positioning the hole up closer to where that pop rivet holds the liner and then downsizing the tubing to 2" with a further run and turn toward the rotor could improve the design (think 2" PVC from the wheel liner with an elbow rather than flexible ducting). This would give a 'ram air' effect and help direct the air toward the rotor. Just have to downsize enough so the wheel doesn't rub on the pipe.

This won't stop Ice Mode from happening. It WILL reduce brake fade and hopefully stop the dust boots from disintegrating!

Spearfish,
I thought about giving it a better angle to the rotor plates but chassis & suspension part couldn’t allow drilling on the upper part of the wheel well. If you have any DYI on please let me know since this suggestion was to build a simple cooling mod.
Regarding PVC, I’ve spent a couple of hours trying to make a PCV ducking but i couldn’t make it work properly and allowing enough flexibility for chassis movement (turn in, braking, accel...). For me, high heat resistent tubing was more convenient and user friendly.
Also, regarding the fact that colder air will not reduce Ice mode, could you be more specific? I am running DOT4 brake & clutch fluids and Stoptech pads on all corners and do not have any brake fade.
Pls advice,
regards Phil

MD-370z · 04-07-2011, 10:07 PM

i will be at icar as much as possible phillip, it opens may 19th i hope to make it there for the lapping session. So im sure I will see you there atleast once this season!

RCZ · 04-08-2011, 12:50 AM

I meant no disrespect sir. I think you did a great job and hopefully it will help with fade. Not sure if it will help with icemode though, as someone said, icemode happens for other reasons. There's another thread on this section where icemode is more thoroughly discussed; you should check it out.

spearfish25 · 04-08-2011, 08:33 AM

I like the simple setup and truly hope it's helpful. Just need a good way to quantify the effect. Do you have a grill radar temp gun? It could help with tracking your rotor and caliper temps, and hopefully we'll see a drop with this setup.

As for ice mode, it's an inherent issue with the ABS system. The ice mode thread dives deeply into this topic, but in short, differential wheel speeds or very abrupt brake application cause a drop in braking force and the perception that you're sliding on ice. It's not temp related but can be exacerbated by pad compound. I've seen many many explanations but few solutions. Guys with other car brands have swapped in a race version of their ABS computer (ie from the Corvette GT2 race team for $$$$) with resolution of the problem. The cheap bandaid fix is to briefly and rapidly release the brake and then reapply which will clear the problem. Getting your foot to lift off the brakes when you want them to work 100% is not an easy task though.

kenchan · 04-08-2011, 02:15 PM

maybe one can temporarily place a thermocouple in the wheel well area and compare temps with the vent open and blocked?

kenchan · 04-08-2011, 02:38 PM

.... ok, maybe that was too easy.

Philipp · 04-10-2011, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spearfish25

I like the simple setup and truly hope it's helpful. Just need a good way to quantify the effect. Do you have a grill radar temp gun? It could help with tracking your rotor and caliper temps, and hopefully we'll see a drop with this setup.

Sprearship,
Tanks for the clarification. I will report on rotor temps from my tracking session mid-May. As suggested by Kenchan, i'll take temps with blocked and open air vents.

kenchan · 04-11-2011, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philipp

Sprearship,Tanks for the clarification.

hey philipp- how did the experiment turn out?

Philipp · 04-14-2011, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenchan

hey philipp- how did the experiment turn out?

lol... Sorry Spearfish for the misspell. I should definitely remove the "auto spelling" option from the ipad…

Kenchan, lapping session is mid-May. I'll report back.

Philipp · 05-15-2011, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

Looks good, but it doesnt look too effective.

Your guess was right...

Quote:

Originally Posted by spearfish25

I like the simple setup and truly hope it's helpful. Just need a good way to quantify the effect. Do you have a grill radar temp gun?

Let's say it wasn't conclusive....

Group,

Here's some feedback on the cooling effects of this mod. Over the week-end, i had my first lapping event at the Mont-Tremblant circuit. After each 30 minute lapping session, i recorded the front rotors temps with a digital laser reader.

Voila the results with open air ducs and blocked air ducs:

Morning runs:
- 8h30-9h00 (open air ducs) Left Rotor: 488F & Right rotor: 411F
- 9h30-10h00 (open air ducs) LR: 501F & RR: 440F
- 10h30-11h00 (blocked air ducs) LR: 490F & RR: 434F

Afternon runs:
- 13h00-13h30 (open air ducs) LR: 535F & 503F
- 14h00-14h30 (blocked air ducs) LR: 511F & 488F
I stopped recording rotor temps after this point...

Track notes:
- This great track has a majority of right turns;
- The front left wheel is receiving the most stress;
- At the end of the straight line i was reaching 138MPH (hoping for some serious air to warned the brakes).

Conclusions:
Based on those numbers, i have to conclude that this mod is worthless...
Even worst, it seems that the centrifude force of the wheel spinning does a better job in keeping the temp down then having the air ducs

.

Can anyone put a light into these findings?

Thanks,

Phil

Att. Pics with blocked air ducs.

kkruel55 · 05-15-2011, 07:49 PM

Do you have the ambient temperatures from each run around the track? I would think that with a large swing in ambient temperatures you might see data that seems nonsensical. Did you let the brakes cool to a certain temperature before each run? Perhaps measuring the temperature differential may give more clues to the effectiveness.

Also one other point -- are you braking exactly at the same point and for the same duration each lap and each session? Otherwise, how do we know if we are going as fast/braking as hard?

I think more data is needed. To the unproven eye however, it looks like this small pipe will have little effect on brake teperature.

kkruel55 · 05-15-2011, 07:56 PM

Perhaps devise a test where we have one car with ducts, one without, or go blocked/unblocked as in this test. Drive to a certain speed, brake hard to a stop. Measure temperature quickly. Drive 1 mile without braking at a constant high rate of speed then coast to a stop. Measure temperature again. A significant drop with ducts and smaller drop without would indicate that they are working. Drop with both ducted and non-ducted would indicate that the cooling from centrifugal motion overrides the ducting and it is not worthwhile. Just an idea.

SPOHN · 05-15-2011, 08:44 PM

What is considered high temps for are brakes anyways?

04-03-2011, 06:47 PM	#17 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1856	I think this 'small' change will actually have rather profound effects. Given that the air in the wheel well is very stagnant to begin with, that tube will pipe in quite a bit of air which will exit both around the tire and through the wheel (aka past the rotors). While it's not the same as directing air directly to the rotor, I'd put money on it being beneficial with real world significance in temp reduction. The only change I would suggest is to have the cutout positioned higher in the wheel well. The current location is very low and may just have the fresh air sucked down by the low pressure under the car. Perhaps positioning the hole up closer to where that pop rivet holds the liner and then downsizing the tubing to 2" with a further run and turn toward the rotor could improve the design (think 2" PVC from the wheel liner with an elbow rather than flexible ducting). This would give a 'ram air' effect and help direct the air toward the rotor. Just have to downsize enough so the wheel doesn't rub on the pipe. This won't stop Ice Mode from happening. It WILL reduce brake fade and hopefully stop the dust boots from disintegrating! __________________ 2013 Cadillac V-Wagon, RIP Z Last edited by spearfish25; 04-03-2011 at 06:53 PM.

04-08-2011, 08:33 AM	#21 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1856	I like the simple setup and truly hope it's helpful. Just need a good way to quantify the effect. Do you have a grill radar temp gun? It could help with tracking your rotor and caliper temps, and hopefully we'll see a drop with this setup. As for ice mode, it's an inherent issue with the ABS system. The ice mode thread dives deeply into this topic, but in short, differential wheel speeds or very abrupt brake application cause a drop in braking force and the perception that you're sliding on ice. It's not temp related but can be exacerbated by pad compound. I've seen many many explanations but few solutions. Guys with other car brands have swapped in a race version of their ABS computer (ie from the Corvette GT2 race team for $$$$) with resolution of the problem. The cheap bandaid fix is to briefly and rapidly release the brake and then reapply which will clear the problem. Getting your foot to lift off the brakes when you want them to work 100% is not an easy task though. __________________ 2013 Cadillac V-Wagon, RIP Z

05-15-2011, 07:49 PM	#28 (permalink)
kkruel55 Base Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 206 Drives: '10 370Z Black M6 Rep Power: 15	Do you have the ambient temperatures from each run around the track? I would think that with a large swing in ambient temperatures you might see data that seems nonsensical. Did you let the brakes cool to a certain temperature before each run? Perhaps measuring the temperature differential may give more clues to the effectiveness. Also one other point -- are you braking exactly at the same point and for the same duration each lap and each session? Otherwise, how do we know if we are going as fast/braking as hard? I think more data is needed. To the unproven eye however, it looks like this small pipe will have little effect on brake teperature. __________________ 2010 Magnetic Black Coupe 6 speed-- Powerhouse Amuse//AP Racing//Volk Racing//Stillen//Tein//SPC//Hotchkis//INGS+1//MRWorks//Fast Intentions

05-15-2011, 07:56 PM	#29 (permalink)
kkruel55 Base Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 206 Drives: '10 370Z Black M6 Rep Power: 15	Perhaps devise a test where we have one car with ducts, one without, or go blocked/unblocked as in this test. Drive to a certain speed, brake hard to a stop. Measure temperature quickly. Drive 1 mile without braking at a constant high rate of speed then coast to a stop. Measure temperature again. A significant drop with ducts and smaller drop without would indicate that they are working. Drop with both ducted and non-ducted would indicate that the cooling from centrifugal motion overrides the ducting and it is not worthwhile. Just an idea. __________________ 2010 Magnetic Black Coupe 6 speed-- Powerhouse Amuse//AP Racing//Volk Racing//Stillen//Tein//SPC//Hotchkis//INGS+1//MRWorks//Fast Intentions

05-15-2011, 08:44 PM	#30 (permalink)
SPOHN A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Covington, GA Age: 46 Posts: 14,844 Drives: Waiting on next Z Rep Power: 221	What is considered high temps for are brakes anyways? __________________

04-07-2011, 10:07 PM	#19 (permalink)
MD-370z Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: canada Posts: 137 Drives: 370z,MB, sport, m6, Rep Power: 16	i will be at icar as much as possible phillip, it opens may 19th i hope to make it there for the lapping session. So im sure I will see you there atleast once this season!

04-08-2011, 12:50 AM	#20 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	I meant no disrespect sir. I think you did a great job and hopefully it will help with fade. Not sure if it will help with icemode though, as someone said, icemode happens for other reasons. There's another thread on this section where icemode is more thoroughly discussed; you should check it out.

04-08-2011, 02:15 PM	#22 (permalink)
kenchan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N/A Posts: 76,801 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 141521	maybe one can temporarily place a thermocouple in the wheel well area and compare temps with the vent open and blocked?

04-08-2011, 02:38 PM	#23 (permalink)
kenchan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N/A Posts: 76,801 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 141521	.... ok, maybe that was too easy.

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