It make any sense to just upgrade rotors?

fuct

haha i figured that! thx Chris

cossie1600

Unless you are going for looks, it is a waste of money. The OEM are 14" big, that's a big enough heatsink for most uses and moderate track days.

ChrisSlicks

Hey Chris, can your 2-piece rotors be turned on a standard brake lathe? I've don't have any scoring but I've got some heavy vibration as they heat up so I was suspecting either uneven deposits or problem with the mounting hardware. I also toasted a set of DS3000's, started to de-laminate from the backing plate. Brake ducts anyone?

__________________
Hotchkis ARB | Stillen CAI | Art Pipes | Berk CBE | Stillen AP Racing Brakes | AE Performance Oil Cooler | BC Racing ER Coilovers | Doran Control Arms

AP - Chris_B

There are a lot of different brake lathes out there, so I'm not sure what you mean by 'standard'. If is is a good, stiff machine with enough swing for the rotor in question (we currently use up to 410mm/16" discs), then it is possible to do the job properly.

If you're cooking DS3000's, cooling should definitely be looked at. Also, consider the Mintex F3R compound, which is a current favorite in NASCAR and a few other series brutal on brakes. It is very linear, with outstanding feedback a quick release. It's good up to 2000°F, so no worries there! These will be in stock at STILLEN tomorrow (FedEx permitting). As always, scuff the rotor surface with a Flex-Hone or Scotch-Brite before bedding in a new compound.

Chris

AP - Chris_B

Just because a rotor's outside diameter measures 14" doesn't mean there is enough heat capacity or the right type of heat dams and internal air flow for very spirited driving. There is a lot more to proper brake systems than a few numbers. And, one-piece rotors have limitations that are overcome with a properly designed 2-piece disc assembly.

The OP stated he is planning on auto-X use. DBA and STILLEN are working on a 2-piece rotor assembly for the Sport/Akebono calipers that will suit his needs -- until he becomes much more sensitive to threshold braking. At that point, only a full upgrade to better calipers will fit the bill. Simply put, the OE calipers do not have the feel or feedback that the AP Racing calipers do. Whether or not that cost is justifiable is up to him and no one else.

Chris

cossie1600

I don't know what kind of driving you are doing, but you are not going to burn up any brakes unless you are doing endurance racing or downhill racing. (make sure you do change pads and fluid).

I can do VIR all day from 131mph to 45mph with no problem 10 minute straight. Even after 10 minutes, I can still go at a relatively quick pace simply by backing off 100 feet early. This is all done with a stock car with just fluids and brake pads change. After 160 track miles (over 3 days), the rotors look brand new and the pads only have about 1/4 wear on it. Heck, I even have a picture of my stock pads after 120 autox runs. It looks brand new before the track day. Corvette with 400+HP runs on rotors that are smaller and calipers that are smaller, yet they can handle the same from 140mph with a simple swap in brake pads. Rotors are just heat sinks, you can easily overcome it by getting pads that can handle the heat.

I understand you are trying to sell a product, but this is unnecessary for a non dedicated track car. It is a waste of money.

Car and Driver tested their Nismo 370z, their max speed was 127mph. I am a non professional driver in a regular 370z. I can hit 131mph in the same spot. I assume I am doing it because I have slightly better street tires and brake pads, I don't have no fancy two piece rotor or 18 extra HP. I did the same thing in a Corvette, makes no difference. Most people in autox go with smaller rotors to save weight, you rarely go over 70 or 80mph in it!

ChrisSlicks

Thanks Chris, I'll research the surrounding shops to see what equipment they have.

The pads seemed to bed correctly, I followed the manufacturers instructions. They were great for 2 sessions, good bite, good release, but after that shudder got progressively worse. The hotter they got the worse the shudder got, seemed like the rotor wasn't expanding evenly on the hat. Definitely need a good cooling solution, I wish Stillen had their kit finished. The home brew method is okay but not ideal.

__________________
Hotchkis ARB | Stillen CAI | Art Pipes | Berk CBE | Stillen AP Racing Brakes | AE Performance Oil Cooler | BC Racing ER Coilovers | Doran Control Arms

AP - Chris_B

Only a waste of money if one is OK with backing off early only 10 minutes into a session AND don't notice the difference in brake feel. Configuring proper brake systems is more than just about heat capacity, which in and of itself is significant. Once you have been at the limit with proper brakes, the OE stuff no longer stacks up. In the end, it's the buyers opinion that counts.

In your particular case with the pad wear you have indicated, upgrading the OE brake system further than you already have would make little sense. However, for people looking for faster lap times, brakes are always up for consideration.

In my years working in professional motorsports, nearly all passing was done in the braking zone. A LOT of time is spent on how the car performs under braking to give the driver the maximum confidence to dive underneath the car he is aiming to overtake while remaining (mostly) under control. Once you have driven a system designed with that sort of performance in mind, it is very difficult going back to a budget OE system. When I say budget system, I mean pretty much any car under about $90k on the market today. Even the mighty GT-R gets needs a little help from the aftermarket when piloted by a serious track enthusiast.

Chris

AP - Chris_B

Once you have a handle on rotor temps, pad selection will become a bit easier. It does sound like you might be right on the upper edge of the envelope with the DS3000's (MOT = 1200°F). This is the lowest temp track pad from Ferodo which is suitable for some tracks, but not those with several heavy braking zones and a skilled driver.

Chris

ChrisSlicks

Stillen was out of temp paint so I'm not sure what I was hitting exactly. I do know that the rotors were still at 600°F in the pits after a cool down lap and a long drive through the pits, not sure how quickly they cool down.

I will have the temp paint and some different pads to try for the next event. I'm just hoping that the rotor ring is still serviceable as it doesn't have a ton of heavy track miles on it yet. The brakes always had a rock solid feel even when I was getting front pad fade in the extended sessions. Given that this was open track some drivers with prepped cars were staying out for up to 90 minutes, I never exceed 25-30 at a time. I also boiled over the power steering fluid despite the Stillen PS cooler, but that was my fault for filling to max instead of min.

__________________
Hotchkis ARB | Stillen CAI | Art Pipes | Berk CBE | Stillen AP Racing Brakes | AE Performance Oil Cooler | BC Racing ER Coilovers | Doran Control Arms

cossie1600

Your car doesn't stop any quicker by changing just rotors unless your brakes are over its operating temperature. In the case of the Z and most relatively stock vehicle, you won't go over that by changing pads and fluids (not in the short time we can be out anyway). If you are so intend on running the stock pads, you MIGHT be able to get away by using tons of ducts and rotors. The question is, is it worth it?

Most amateur track sessions are less than 20-25 minutes long, you are more likely to hit traffic before you get 20 minutes of uninterrupted driving. I don't know what serious enthusiasts you are talking about, but most NASA TT drivers in the production classes run on relatively stock hardware with the exception of race pads (unless you have a crappy car). Heck, I have won a Redline Time Attack on smaller brakes than what I have in the 370. All you need is one hotlap, not twenty slow ones in most amateur track days. Obviously it isn't my money, but just a thought.

My 370z generated over 1.2G on the stock hardware with just pads. OEM pads with fancy rotors won't do much more than that. Heck even if it does, it wont be for long anyway.

my rotors were 600f after pulling off track, it got up to 1500, but it stabilize around 1300 to 1450

AP - Chris_B

The point being made is consistency and control across ALL temperatures from cold to hot. The best brake systems provide the driver with total confidence under braking when pushing for that extra 50 feet before hitting the binders. You should be able to actually feel what is going on at the tires with your foot. One pro driver I have worked with described it as "making love to the brake pedal." With the car set up to his liking, he could pass any other Indycar driver under braking on road courses. OE systems aren't typically good bed partners for that sort of activity!

Braking distances are limited by available tire traction (provided the front/rear bias is optimized, which is not the case for the OE system) and track conditions. The most effective brake systems will make adjustments to brake bias to get more out of the tires than the OE system is set up to do.

Time Attack is a different animal as only a few laps count -- kind of like qualifying without the fun of a race day! If you were peaking at 1500°F during a T/A, I would guess you were probably starting to crack OE rotors. Cool down laps are extremely important when running those temps on stock equipment.

Chris

cossie1600

I agree with you that race cars are entirely different story, but it is a total overkill for a street car that occasionally go to the track or just autox. Unless the car is heavily modded, the OE system with brake pads and fluids can easily survive a good session from an advanced driver. Obviously the more money you spent, the more miles and pad life you will get out of it. The question is, is it worth it? From a lap time point of view, a rotor will get you virtually zero.

I usually do 6 track events a year, I can tell you I have never cracked a rotor due to heat with the exception of the C6. I had to replace my first set on the 350Z after 2 years of tracking, they were eventually ruined by the HP+ I installed. This was after about 20 track days and 45K street miles. (Heck, I even cracked a brake line before rotors) On the C6, I had small surface cracks near the holes on the crossdrilled rotors. None of them were through the rotors, they were just surface cracks. I took care of the problem by simply getting a new set that have been cryo-treated. It lasted me enough for another 10 track days. My 370 came back home after 2.5 days of tracking, rotor shows no significant wear and no grooves.

AP - Chris_B

Both of our viewpoints are actually pretty compatible. You are speaking from more to one end of the spectrum as far as driver style is concerned, and we deal with drivers from all over the spectrum. The fundamental truth is that brake upgrades are bolted to the car, but are made for the driver. Some find little benefit for the cost, while others claim it was the best upgrade they ever did to their car. So to say "it is a waste of money" could be true in one person's case, but entirely the opposite for many others. YMMV.

Chris

BeauNC

I've done VIR full course with a 350Z and BASE brakes. With Hawk HP+ pads I could get 4-5 laps before getting brake fade. My factory rotors lasted until 80,000 miles or so before I was getting vibration when braking. The last 20,000 miles or so I used HP+ pads for daily driving also, so if I had switched back to a less aggressive pad the rotors may have lasted a bit longer. From my experience, the 370Z with sport brakes should be MORE than track capable with the right pads and fluid and should last 80k-100k miles unless you use aggressive pads and do a lot track days. My fastest lap at VIR was a 2:27 with no mods other than brake pads, fluid, and 275 width tires on all 4 corners. I had puny brakes, the 14" brakes should be amazing.

The last time I checked, Brembo says "not for racing use" on their drilled and slotted rotors. So it seems that not even Brembo wants to advise using them for serious abuse.