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Front/rear sway bar questions
This is sort of a sway bar 101 type question. Yes I looked but couldn't find something specific to this.
Now that my car is about to got to sleep for the winter, I'm starting to plan what I'm going to do in the spring. I am most likely going with Eibach Pro springs for a slight drop and stiffness. No, not going with Coilovers as it's a little overkill for my needs. I'm familiar with the Eibach Pro kit from having them on my Mustang Ecoboost. I'm thinking of also getting the swaybars from Eibach. I've read (but can't find the post) that the Z benefits from upgrading the front but not the back. Is this true? Also what are the pros and cons of upgrading the sway bars? I see that there are 3 ways to mount them, again pros and cons. Sorry if this has already been answered 100 times. When a car has been around as long as this, sometimes things get lost in the noise. |
I would also like to hear the answers to these questions. I have seen a lot of comments on the subject but it would be nice to see them all summarized to pros and cons.
Thanks! |
A stiff front sway bar will reduce understeer and help you turn in better. A stiff rear bar will induce more oversteer, so track people tend to prefer softer sway bar in the rear. That's why you see a lot of people put on a Hotchkis front bar because it is the stiffest one on the market and then go with either the soft OEM rear bar or no rear bar to reduce oversteer.
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There's plenty of info out there and it's not hard to find. These were the first two threads that came up when I searched:
http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspen...-question.html http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspen...ar-set-up.html |
for bumming around on the street, completely and utterly unnecessary and a waste of money
for track, you want Hotchkis. Whether front and rear or just front depends on your driving style and rest of the setup but for you . . . save the money |
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Good point. It should be noted that the Z chassis has a lot of roll for a sports car so a stiff front sway bar helps reduce understeer because the car is not lacking for grip. With a heavier vehicle and less grip from the tires, a stiff front sway bar can cause a lot more push through the turns (i.e. increase understeer).
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Skip the Eibach bar and just go with the Hotchkis front bar. The only reason to you need to mess with the rear bar is if you don't know how to rotate the car with the throttle.
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yeah the hotchkis front bar TRANSFORMED my 370z.
DO IT!!!! I kept the stock rear swaybar, which for daily use, helps keep the rear from losing traction over non compliant surfaces. Being that all of our roads in this country are garbage, I'd recommend keeping it stock. The front swaybar to this day was the best $$$ spent on the Z. :driving: |
The hotchkiss definitely see to be a fan favorite here but I’d also consider what tires your going to use. If the bar is too stiff you can overpower the tires, so when choosing you have to look at it as a package. I went with the stillen because of the adjustability at the time and also know I’m not running R compounds or slicks but choosing now eibachs do look like a nice in between and would be tempting.
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Personally I'd avoid mismatching dampers and springs. Pretty much everyone uses the stiffest front sway bar they can for the track, Hotchkiss is the stiffest off the shelf bar. It's up to you what you want to do with the rear, you can put faster lap times with out it but it can be less predictable on the street.
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I was just about to post a new thread about this until that second to last sentence caught my eye... I'm clearly a noob and wanted a very aggressive handling car so I threw a bunch of money at coilovers and both front AND back hotchkis sway bars for my 6 month old '20 sport . Now I wish I was kidding you when I say this, but I've already been through 3 separate coilover kits because I've been on a mission to find the right balance of street drivability and performance. First was the digressive series kit from BC, then the true rear BR series, and finally the divorced spring BR series. Right now I have the divorced spring style kit, and BOTH hotchkis bars on my car. I'm about to give up and go back to just stock struts and lowering springs because the instability in the car when going over medium bumps is driving me insane, but I'm starting to truly suspect its the sway bars, or at least the rear sway bar (which I have the links going through the middle hole of the 3). Aside from oversteer/understeer issues with a rear sway, I'm hoping someone can tell me that Im an idiot for not expecting this. I know the sways can act as additional spring stiffness when only one side hits an imperfection, but can it really make the car feel that much stiffer/unstable over bumps? I've got the dampers all set to the softest setting too, and default spring rates as well. Sorry for the story book post, I'm just trying to figure this out. |
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I ran into some really weird handling issues with my car when I went to higher rate springs. The car would dart around on bumps so badly that a passenger could feel it. My issue came down to not enough down travel meaning that one or more wheels was constantly struggling to make contact with the ground. What helped me was adding a set of helper springs to the car. This gave me way more down travel and made the car handle bumps a lot better. I also don't run a rear bar because I found it much easier to get the power down without one. I just increased my spring rates to get the right balance or rotation for my needs. Here is a link to my short write up from by build thread: Rear helper springs |
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Responded to your thread, I need to do this on my car. |
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the second coilover kit I put on had custom swift springs at 12k in the front and 7k in the rear (true rear, not divorced spring). This was BRUTAL to drive and I immediately threw on 10k/5k swifts and noticed a huge difference. But I assumed the custom valved dampers for the 12k/7k original springs on this kit were causing it to still be too stiff for daily street driving. That's why I went with a completely new divorced spring kit, using default spring rates of 10k front and 8k rear. As I'm sure you know, the spring rate is basically double for divorced spring vs true rear coilover spring due to the wheel rate. This was also noticeably better, but I'm still feeling what I think you described as "darting" (car slightly being thrown left or right I think?) when hitting bumps with one side of the car only. The other thing too is that I have yet to get my alignment done, because I wanted to finalize my configuration before spending the 100 bucks and avoid having to do it again if I wanted to change something. I know this will affect handling, but I didn't think it would be enough to cause my issue, right? As for ride height, I'm not slammed, and I'm not at stock height. I'd say right now I'm noticing this at maybe 1.5 inches lower than stock, so nothing extreme but was planning to fine tune the height adjustment to maybe a half inch lower than it is now, just waiting for springs to settle a bit first. I'm not really sure what down travel is. I'm on the default dampers that come with the BR series coilovers from BC and I have them set to the softest of the 30 available settings. I appreciate the responses, guys, thank you! |
You screwed up by not getting an alignment done. :shakes head: Everytime you change coilovers and springs. It changes your ride height.
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lol I'm fully aware of why an alignment is needed and what it can do to the car when it's not aligned. Not just by being told or reading it, I've actually experienced it many times back in the day on my older cars. Right now I'm specifically talking about the way the car handles over imperfect roads. The car actually feels great going straight on smooth roads, and even on smooth turns. but I'm specifically talking about hitting bumps on one side of the car only. If you guys are convinced it's my alignment causing what I'm feeling and can prove it to me somehow I'd be happy to send you an amazon gift card lol. |
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Or you can explain to me in technical detail how camber, castor, or toe adjustment would cause a bump on one side of the car to feel any different instead of assuming an alignment will fix all my issues. The car does not pull to the left or the right at all. There is no visibile uneven tire wear anywhere. And when I go over bumps or divots in the road that cause BOTH sides to move, I don't have this problem. So again, please explain to me how you're so certain my alignment is the issue? |
you ever see a car drive straight down the road but it's sitting sideways? That's the result of frame damage or an alignment where two wheels on an axle pull one way while the others pull the other way. Improper alignment may result in the car going straight fine, but being lazy turning one way, and fast another way. If the bump comes at you anything other than head on, chances are the wheels will start to pull in opposing directions at different times and with varying forces. - That's why alignment *could* affect what you're feeling.
The other thing to consider is type of coil. My car sitting on Bilstein monotube coils with about 400lb springs rides like a stiff brick compared to my racecar on kwv3 with 14k front and 10k rear springs on slicks. BC are not exactly known for having the most comfy coil out there, and each person's expectations are usually different. If your ride height is close to bottoming out the coil or only one of them is at a lower than expected height, you can be left with odd bump characteristics that ruin the ride entirely. Combine being too low with a super stiff monotube damper and it likely won't be comfortable, even on the smoothest of racetracks. |
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Also that "darting" sensation you feel likely means that your car is "slammed." The springs are fully compressing. I'd raise your ride height at least 1/2" and get an alignment. |
Everytime you change springs, the valving inside the coilover/shock should be change to match the new spring.
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It does seem more and more people are running no rear bar which is something I wanted to try at a safer track like button willow and learn to throttle steer better but then 2020 became a **** show so never got any track time in. |
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And yes, by darting I mean rapid lateral movement independent of steering angle or input. |
Tramlining, rapid darting, or following every bump in the road can be a result of a lot of camber.
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Ok guys, the verdict is in....
It was the hotchkis rear sway bar that was causing it. I removed one of the endlinks to test it and low and behold, that was it. I'm almost tempted to switch out the front sway for something slightly less stiff since now I know the effect it can have on handling over uneven surfaces. After unlinking the rear sway, I played around with the rear damper settings since I had them on the softest setting originally. I noticed even with the rears on 50% stiffness (15 out of 30 clicks) the darting was still a lot less noticeable and the stiffer damping still helped the rolling as expected, just not as ridiculously as the fat rear bar being connected. So let this be a lesson for anyone else that falls in the same trap as me. I knew it was not the alignment causing what I was feeling even though im in serious need of one at this point and I'm looking forward to even more improved handling from that. Just need to fine tune the height now since I just put this kit on last weekend and wanted to let springs settle a bit. Anyway, thanks to everyone who chimed in... too bad Geokots ain't gettin a giftcard! :p |
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