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-   -   Front/rear sway bar questions (http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspension/135181-front-rear-sway-bar-questions.html)

Ralphatron 12-09-2020 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhill (Post 3975645)
Really easy way to find out, disconnect one side of the bar and drive it. I’ve ran some stiff bars on another car and then moved to softer and could say the ride was better over uneven terrain but I don’t know if I’d go as far as saying unstable. Then again the hotchkis is a pretty massive bar. If spec on the net are correct I think the eibachs would be a interesting set to use since between the adjustment ranges it’s the only set I’ve seen that can go either way as a stiffer front bar vs rear (in ratio) or a stiffer rear vs front (in ratio). So theoretically they should have the widest range of tune ability.. I was pretty surprised to see the stillen even at the stiffest front setting only being marginally stiffer than the softest rear.

yeah, I think what I'm going to do first is move the end link to the outer hole (softest setting) on the rear sway. You're saying just unlink one side and basically leave the endlink hanging there to test this out? any potential issues I can run into while driving it this way for a bit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan (Post 3975689)
There are a lot of variables there to consider. What are the spring rates you went with? What are the alignment settings? What is the ride height? How much down travel do you have? How are the dampers set up? Etc...

I ran into some really weird handling issues with my car when I went to higher rate springs. The car would dart around on bumps so badly that a passenger could feel it. My issue came down to not enough down travel meaning that one or more wheels was constantly struggling to make contact with the ground. What helped me was adding a set of helper springs to the car. This gave me way more down travel and made the car handle bumps a lot better.

I also don't run a rear bar because I found it much easier to get the power down without one. I just increased my spring rates to get the right balance or rotation for my needs.

Here is a link to my short write up from by build thread:
Rear helper springs

Yeah, the adventure I've been on the past few months trying to get this right has taught me about all the factors that come into play with suspension.

the second coilover kit I put on had custom swift springs at 12k in the front and 7k in the rear (true rear, not divorced spring). This was BRUTAL to drive and I immediately threw on 10k/5k swifts and noticed a huge difference. But I assumed the custom valved dampers for the 12k/7k original springs on this kit were causing it to still be too stiff for daily street driving.

That's why I went with a completely new divorced spring kit, using default spring rates of 10k front and 8k rear. As I'm sure you know, the spring rate is basically double for divorced spring vs true rear coilover spring due to the wheel rate.

This was also noticeably better, but I'm still feeling what I think you described as "darting" (car slightly being thrown left or right I think?) when hitting bumps with one side of the car only.

The other thing too is that I have yet to get my alignment done, because I wanted to finalize my configuration before spending the 100 bucks and avoid having to do it again if I wanted to change something. I know this will affect handling, but I didn't think it would be enough to cause my issue, right?

As for ride height, I'm not slammed, and I'm not at stock height. I'd say right now I'm noticing this at maybe 1.5 inches lower than stock, so nothing extreme but was planning to fine tune the height adjustment to maybe a half inch lower than it is now, just waiting for springs to settle a bit first.

I'm not really sure what down travel is. I'm on the default dampers that come with the BR series coilovers from BC and I have them set to the softest of the 30 available settings.

I appreciate the responses, guys, thank you!

Rusty 12-09-2020 11:02 AM

You screwed up by not getting an alignment done. :shakes head: Everytime you change coilovers and springs. It changes your ride height.

Ralphatron 12-09-2020 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 3975729)
You screwed up by not getting an alignment done. :shakes head: Everytime you change coilovers and springs. It changes your ride height.

lol, I said I haven't done the alignment yet since I'm trying to finalize my configuration and final ride height. I'm definitely planning to get it done as soon as I decide what I'm keeping on the car. Why would I get it aligned if I know I'm going to change the suspension configuration and then have to re-align it again at $100 bucks a pop.

geokots 12-09-2020 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralphatron (Post 3975735)
lol, I said I haven't done the alignment yet since I'm trying to finalize my configuration and final ride height. I'm definitely planning to get it done as soon as I decide what I'm keeping on the car. Why would I get it aligned if I know I'm going to change the suspension configuration and then have to re-align it again at $100 bucks a pop.

Because not getting the alignment won't give you a true indication of the ride/fitment.

Rusty 12-09-2020 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralphatron (Post 3975735)
lol, I said I haven't done the alignment yet since I'm trying to finalize my configuration and final ride height. I'm definitely planning to get it done as soon as I decide what I'm keeping on the car. Why would I get it aligned if I know I'm going to change the suspension configuration and then have to re-align it again at $100 bucks a pop.

Everytime you change spring rates. You have to get it align.

Rusty 12-09-2020 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geokots (Post 3975740)
Because not getting the alignment won't give you a true indication of the ride/fitment.

:iagree:

Ralphatron 12-09-2020 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geokots (Post 3975740)
Because not getting the alignment won't give you a true indication of the ride/fitment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 3975742)
Everytime you change spring rates. You have to get it align.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 3975743)
:iagree:


lol I'm fully aware of why an alignment is needed and what it can do to the car when it's not aligned. Not just by being told or reading it, I've actually experienced it many times back in the day on my older cars.

Right now I'm specifically talking about the way the car handles over imperfect roads. The car actually feels great going straight on smooth roads, and even on smooth turns. but I'm specifically talking about hitting bumps on one side of the car only. If you guys are convinced it's my alignment causing what I'm feeling and can prove it to me somehow I'd be happy to send you an amazon gift card lol.

geokots 12-09-2020 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralphatron (Post 3975748)
lol I'm fully aware of why an alignment is needed and what it can do to the car when it's not aligned. Not just by being told or reading it, I've actually experienced it many times back in the day on my older cars.

Right now I'm specifically talking about the way the car handles over imperfect roads. The car actually feels great going straight on smooth roads, and even on smooth turns. but I'm specifically talking about hitting bumps on one side of the car only. If you guys are convinced it's my alignment causing what I'm feeling and can prove it to me somehow I'd be happy to send you an amazon gift card lol.

LOL so I get a gift card if I do the work for you. Doesn't sound like much of a deal. How about you do the work properly and send me a gift card when I'm right.

Ralphatron 12-09-2020 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geokots (Post 3975758)
LOL so I get a gift card if I do the work for you. Doesn't sound like much of a deal. How about you do the work properly and send me a gift card when I'm right.

The point was that I can bet an amazon gift card that an alignment is not the problem here. Please go back and read my original post so you can have a better idea of what I'm dealing with because it doesn't seem like you do.

Or you can explain to me in technical detail how camber, castor, or toe adjustment would cause a bump on one side of the car to feel any different instead of assuming an alignment will fix all my issues.

The car does not pull to the left or the right at all. There is no visibile uneven tire wear anywhere. And when I go over bumps or divots in the road that cause BOTH sides to move, I don't have this problem. So again, please explain to me how you're so certain my alignment is the issue?

victorofhavoc 12-09-2020 02:15 PM

you ever see a car drive straight down the road but it's sitting sideways? That's the result of frame damage or an alignment where two wheels on an axle pull one way while the others pull the other way. Improper alignment may result in the car going straight fine, but being lazy turning one way, and fast another way. If the bump comes at you anything other than head on, chances are the wheels will start to pull in opposing directions at different times and with varying forces. - That's why alignment *could* affect what you're feeling.

The other thing to consider is type of coil. My car sitting on Bilstein monotube coils with about 400lb springs rides like a stiff brick compared to my racecar on kwv3 with 14k front and 10k rear springs on slicks. BC are not exactly known for having the most comfy coil out there, and each person's expectations are usually different. If your ride height is close to bottoming out the coil or only one of them is at a lower than expected height, you can be left with odd bump characteristics that ruin the ride entirely. Combine being too low with a super stiff monotube damper and it likely won't be comfortable, even on the smoothest of racetracks.

wanker 12-09-2020 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralphatron (Post 3975735)
lol, I said I haven't done the alignment yet since I'm trying to finalize my configuration and final ride height. I'm definitely planning to get it done as soon as I decide what I'm keeping on the car. Why would I get it aligned if I know I'm going to change the suspension configuration and then have to re-align it again at $100 bucks a pop.

How about purchasing a lifetime alignment deal? They are usually only a couple of hundred bucks.

Also that "darting" sensation you feel likely means that your car is "slammed." The springs are fully compressing.

I'd raise your ride height at least 1/2" and get an alignment.

Rusty 12-09-2020 03:52 PM

Everytime you change springs, the valving inside the coilover/shock should be change to match the new spring.

Jhill 12-09-2020 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 3975794)
Everytime you change springs, the valving inside the coilover/shock should be change to match the new spring.

He got a complete new kit BC BR 10/8 so that’s not the issue anymore. With his BC BR his ride height isn’t done by preload so that eliminates the slammed no travel issue. Definitely need to get your alignment checked because if your front toe is set - then it will absolutely be twitchy and darty (that’s why it’s done on auto cross cars). As for the bars I’m going off memory here and again totally different car with different suspension design so not even close to apples to apples but I do remember when I had the stiffer front bar before the softer one I put on later trying to eliminate under steer but I also found I had less kickback in the steering wheel on uneven rougher roads. Not sure if that’s what your feeling but ruling out the sway bars is easy enough by just disconnecting it. I guess I’d also pay attention to if it’s darting directly after the front wheel hits which would lead me to think your describing what I felt vs directly after the rear hits like it’s causing the car to step out.

It does seem more and more people are running no rear bar which is something I wanted to try at a safer track like button willow and learn to throttle steer better but then 2020 became a **** show so never got any track time in.

Brendan 12-09-2020 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralphatron (Post 3975706)
yeah, I think what I'm going to do first is move the end link to the outer hole (softest setting) on the rear sway. You're saying just unlink one side and basically leave the endlink hanging there to test this out? any potential issues I can run into while driving it this way for a bit?



Yeah, the adventure I've been on the past few months trying to get this right has taught me about all the factors that come into play with suspension.

the second coilover kit I put on had custom swift springs at 12k in the front and 7k in the rear (true rear, not divorced spring). This was BRUTAL to drive and I immediately threw on 10k/5k swifts and noticed a huge difference. But I assumed the custom valved dampers for the 12k/7k original springs on this kit were causing it to still be too stiff for daily street driving.

That's why I went with a completely new divorced spring kit, using default spring rates of 10k front and 8k rear. As I'm sure you know, the spring rate is basically double for divorced spring vs true rear coilover spring due to the wheel rate.

This was also noticeably better, but I'm still feeling what I think you described as "darting" (car slightly being thrown left or right I think?) when hitting bumps with one side of the car only.

The other thing too is that I have yet to get my alignment done, because I wanted to finalize my configuration before spending the 100 bucks and avoid having to do it again if I wanted to change something. I know this will affect handling, but I didn't think it would be enough to cause my issue, right?

As for ride height, I'm not slammed, and I'm not at stock height. I'd say right now I'm noticing this at maybe 1.5 inches lower than stock, so nothing extreme but was planning to fine tune the height adjustment to maybe a half inch lower than it is now, just waiting for springs to settle a bit first.

I'm not really sure what down travel is. I'm on the default dampers that come with the BR series coilovers from BC and I have them set to the softest of the 30 available settings.

I appreciate the responses, guys, thank you!

With springs that soft you should still have a lot of down travel. Without knowing anything else I would look at alignment.

And yes, by darting I mean rapid lateral movement independent of steering angle or input.

victorofhavoc 12-09-2020 06:11 PM

Tramlining, rapid darting, or following every bump in the road can be a result of a lot of camber.


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