Inadvertently got in an argument...

ChopsZ · 10-10-2018, 10:07 PM

With a long time friend of mine about brake fluid.

I sent him a pic of the brake kit that I just got and told him I was installing it all next week. He said I better not use that Motul 5.1 that I ordered with the kit because it will screw things up.

I told him he was getting the 5.1 confused with 5. He was swearing up and down that they were one in the same. We went back and forth several times about this. And this is coming from a guy who owned, daily drove and raced a 350Z Nismo, and currently has a 2011 370Z Nismo that he races. He went on to tell me that he has an "engineer" friend who knows about brake systems and says the same thing about 5.1 and that I had better listen to his advice.

I then said that maybe his friend should brush up on his brake fluid information because he's wrong. He then got huffy with me and just ended the conversation by saying "Good luck"...

So I don't know where my friend and his "engineer" friend are getting their information from, but I think the two of them need to seriously go do some reading and research before spewing mis-information like that.

I know a lot of members on here (as well as my friend) use the Motul RBF600, but for daily street use, I simply don't need it. The Motul DOT 5.1 that I purchased will be more than fine for my purposes. I just wanted something a little thinner and with a higher boiling point, just because.

Jhill · 10-11-2018, 03:11 AM

Too many engineers think because they are an engineer in one thing that they know all about everything. The good engineers know what they kno and are willing to learn what they don’t. For the former engineer they will be the first one to tell you they are an engineer to which one of the best responses is to say really? What kind of train do you drive?

You are correct though DOT 3/4/5.1 are all glycol based DOT 5 is silicon based and not compatible as you know. And for boiling point concerns 5.1 can go in 3 or 4 but the reverse is not true, not that it will instantly fail it just a boiling point concern. Then there gets the really technical as 5.1 viscosity is thinner (probably not noticeable by foot but by a brake lever it is) and then you have higher boiling point racing DOT 4’s that can have even higher boiling points than 5.1. But for your argument sake you are correct.

Rusty · 10-11-2018, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhill

Too many engineers think because they are an engineer in one thing that they know all about everything. The good engineers know what they kno and are willing to learn what they don’t. For the former engineer they will be the first one to tell you they are an engineer to which one of the best responses is to say really? What kind of train do you drive?

You are correct though DOT 3/4/5.1 are all glycol based DOT 5 is silicon based and not compatible as you know. And for boiling point concerns 5.1 can go in 3 or 4 but the reverse is not true, not that it will instantly fail it just a boiling point concern. Then there gets the really technical as 5.1 viscosity is thinner (probably not noticeable by foot but by a brake lever it is) and then you have higher boiling point racing DOT 4’s that can have even higher boiling points than 5.1. But for your argument sake you are correct.

ChopsZ · 10-11-2018, 08:24 PM

I think a lot of these guys try to impress or scare you when they spout out "Imma engineer". Who cares? I didn't ask you if you're an engineer. In fact, I didn't ask anything. You started telling me what I "need" to do and buy when I already "know" what I need to do and buy.

Luckily for me, my parents didn't raise no fool. I know how to read and know to research to get information. To me, that's part of the fun, plus you get to learn something along the way.

Now I do believe (from a YouTube video I watched) that 370's with the base brakes such as I have, the lid to the brake reservoir should say DOT 3, and that the Sport and Nismo should say DOT 4. I don't know if that's true or not. Could be.

Either way, since I am upgrading the entire brake system on my base 370, I wanted to just go with a little extra headroom with the brake fluid. My thinking is that the thinner viscosity of the 5.1 will be better for the ABS pump/valves, and that the slightly higher boiling point is just another little bit of safety headroom, just because why not?!

Will I ever need any of that headroom? Most likely not, but it's there just in case, and it didn't really cost much more than the regular DOT 4 stuff.

So in short, yes...

Rusty · 10-11-2018, 08:51 PM

I is an engineer.

Got degree's in welding and mechanical.

Plus criminal justice.

I don't play one on tv nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Some engineers just suck. They have no personality. When in college. They are taught analytical thinking. Most don't take any social classes to help them in public. So they have a hard time being with someone who is not an engineer. Most read something in a book, so then it's the gospel. Even if it's wrong.

And they think they're right all the time.

Most have no hands on experience. They can't tell the difference between a metric crescent wrench and a standard crescent wrench.

BGTV8 · 10-12-2018, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

I is an engineer.

Got degree's in welding and mechanical.

Plus criminal justice.

I don't play one on tv nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Some engineers just suck. They have no personality. When in college. They are taught analytical thinking. Most don't take any social classes to help them in public. So they have a hard time being with someone who is not an engineer. Most read something in a book, so then it's the gospel. Even if it's wrong.

And they think they're right all the time.

Most have no hands on experience. They can't tell the difference between a metric crescent wrench and a standard crescent wrench.

Old saying from the Swinburne Institute of Technology engineering school ...

Last week I couldn't spell engineer, now I is one !

Zingston · 10-12-2018, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

I is an engineer.

Got degree's in welding and mechanical.

Plus criminal justice.

I don't play one on tv nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Some engineers just suck. They have no personality. When in college. They are taught analytical thinking. Most don't take any social classes to help them in public. So they have a hard time being with someone who is not an engineer. Most read something in a book, so then it's the gospel. Even if it's wrong.

And they think they're right all the time.

Most have no hands on experience. They can't tell the difference between a metric crescent wrench and a standard crescent wrench.

Come on! You must know close to everything... just look at that rep power #!!!

ChopsZ · 10-11-2018, 09:09 PM

That pretty much sums it up.

Unfortunately, it seems as though my friend is a sucker for such BS. And he says this engineer guy is on his "race" team. I know he takes his Nismo to Road Atlanta all the time, but that doesn't mean anything. Oh well. Better him than me. LOL

Elmo370z · 10-11-2018, 09:19 PM

I’ve been running motul 5.1 for the last 3 years, while tracking the car. Brakes haven’t failed me yet.

JARblue · 10-12-2018, 09:51 AM

Some basic reading should set your "engineer" friend straight. Of course, that might be asking too much

I routinely have to tell engineers what they screwed up. Stuff they are supposed to know. And I only have a high school diploma. The ability to pass classes and a test rarely translate to competency in the real world in my experience. Also, in Texas there is no subcategory. You get licensed as a professional engineer and you can practice structural or civil or mechanical engineering. No additional training needed.

Jayhovah · 10-12-2018, 10:10 AM

There are idiots in all professions, going up to the highest levels. I am an engineer, and I know tons (TONS!) of awful engineers. Hell, the vast majority of them are not that smart... kind of like the vast majority of human beings, unfortunately. We all live on the same bell curve.

Spooler · 10-12-2018, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayhovah

There are idiots in all professions, going up to the highest levels. I am an engineer, and I know tons (TONS!) of awful engineers. Hell, the vast majority of them are not that smart... kind of like the vast majority of human beings, unfortunately. We all live on the same bell curve.

LOL, I am an engineer also. I have meet several who know everything and you can teach nothing. They are not smart enough to know they need help. As I say, "So dumb that they do not know they are dumb". I can't stand those types.

ZoomZ · 10-12-2018, 11:06 AM

Just flushed and replaced with Motul 5.1 in another Nissan vehicle of mine. Working nicely.

I have read that 5.1 is less viscous than 3 or 4. The idea is that 5.1 works better in the ABS components, but may not have the same pedal feel as 3 or 4. On the mushy side.

Just what I have read. Not proven. I might buy into that theory.

Geoff-AU · 10-15-2018, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZoomZ

Just flushed and replaced with Motul 5.1 in another Nissan vehicle of mine. Working nicely.

I have read that 5.1 is less viscous than 3 or 4. The idea is that 5.1 works better in the ABS components, but may not have the same pedal feel as 3 or 4. On the mushy side.

Just what I have read. Not proven. I might buy into that theory.

Fluids are incompressible. In terms of static system (holding the pedal down constantly) you will feel the same force at the same pedal displacement.

The only difference is in dynamic feeling. A really viscous fluid doesn't want to move. This suggests it will give you a rock hard pedal feel right away and then the pedal will gradually sink until it stabilises, during which time you get less braking effort than you feel on the pedal. You probably won't notice the pedal travel, because what you feel is the pressure on your foot.

A less viscous fluid will give you more pedal travel with low resistance but then it will firm up really quickly. That initial pedal travel probably explains the "my brakes aren't there" feeling people don't like. You always have to move the pads a little bit in order to make them bite on the rotors so there must be some pedal travel.

ZoomZ · 10-20-2018, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff-AU

Fluids are incompressible. In terms of static system (holding the pedal down constantly) you will feel the same force at the same pedal displacement.

The only difference is in dynamic feeling. A really viscous fluid doesn't want to move. This suggests it will give you a rock hard pedal feel right away and then the pedal will gradually sink until it stabilises, during which time you get less braking effort than you feel on the pedal. You probably won't notice the pedal travel, because what you feel is the pressure on your foot.

A less viscous fluid will give you more pedal travel with low resistance but then it will firm up really quickly. That initial pedal travel probably explains the "my brakes aren't there" feeling people don't like. You always have to move the pads a little bit in order to make them bite on the rotors so there must be some pedal travel.

That makes sense. Thanks

10-10-2018, 10:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
ChopsZ Track Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Central Florida Age: 49 Posts: 965 Drives: 2016 370Z GM 6MT Rep Power: 2301	Inadvertently got in an argument... With a long time friend of mine about brake fluid. I sent him a pic of the brake kit that I just got and told him I was installing it all next week. He said I better not use that Motul 5.1 that I ordered with the kit because it will screw things up. I told him he was getting the 5.1 confused with 5. He was swearing up and down that they were one in the same. We went back and forth several times about this. And this is coming from a guy who owned, daily drove and raced a 350Z Nismo, and currently has a 2011 370Z Nismo that he races. He went on to tell me that he has an "engineer" friend who knows about brake systems and says the same thing about 5.1 and that I had better listen to his advice. I then said that maybe his friend should brush up on his brake fluid information because he's wrong. He then got huffy with me and just ended the conversation by saying "Good luck"... So I don't know where my friend and his "engineer" friend are getting their information from, but I think the two of them need to seriously go do some reading and research before spewing mis-information like that. I know a lot of members on here (as well as my friend) use the Motul RBF600, but for daily street use, I simply don't need it. The Motul DOT 5.1 that I purchased will be more than fine for my purposes. I just wanted something a little thinner and with a higher boiling point, just because. __________________ She's For Sale! PERFORMANCE: Aero Workz \| Akebono \| BC Racing \| EcuTek \| HKS \| MaxBore \| Motordyne \| Nismo \| RJM \| SPL \| StopTech \| Z1 AUDIO: Arc Audio \| Bazooka \| Helix \| Pioneer \| Stereo Integrity

10-11-2018, 03:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
Jhill Track Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: San jose Posts: 854 Drives: 2013 370z sport Rep Power: 3385	Too many engineers think because they are an engineer in one thing that they know all about everything. The good engineers know what they kno and are willing to learn what they don’t. For the former engineer they will be the first one to tell you they are an engineer to which one of the best responses is to say really? What kind of train do you drive? You are correct though DOT 3/4/5.1 are all glycol based DOT 5 is silicon based and not compatible as you know. And for boiling point concerns 5.1 can go in 3 or 4 but the reverse is not true, not that it will instantly fail it just a boiling point concern. Then there gets the really technical as 5.1 viscosity is thinner (probably not noticeable by foot but by a brake lever it is) and then you have higher boiling point racing DOT 4’s that can have even higher boiling points than 5.1. But for your argument sake you are correct. JARblue, danegrey, Rusty and 4 others like this.

10-11-2018, 08:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
ChopsZ Track Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Central Florida Age: 49 Posts: 965 Drives: 2016 370Z GM 6MT Rep Power: 2301	I think a lot of these guys try to impress or scare you when they spout out "Imma engineer". Who cares? I didn't ask you if you're an engineer. In fact, I didn't ask anything. You started telling me what I "need" to do and buy when I already "know" what I need to do and buy. Luckily for me, my parents didn't raise no fool. I know how to read and know to research to get information. To me, that's part of the fun, plus you get to learn something along the way. Now I do believe (from a YouTube video I watched) that 370's with the base brakes such as I have, the lid to the brake reservoir should say DOT 3, and that the Sport and Nismo should say DOT 4. I don't know if that's true or not. Could be. Either way, since I am upgrading the entire brake system on my base 370, I wanted to just go with a little extra headroom with the brake fluid. My thinking is that the thinner viscosity of the 5.1 will be better for the ABS pump/valves, and that the slightly higher boiling point is just another little bit of safety headroom, just because why not?! Will I ever need any of that headroom? Most likely not, but it's there just in case, and it didn't really cost much more than the regular DOT 4 stuff. So in short, yes... __________________ She's For Sale! PERFORMANCE: Aero Workz \| Akebono \| BC Racing \| EcuTek \| HKS \| MaxBore \| Motordyne \| Nismo \| RJM \| SPL \| StopTech \| Z1 AUDIO: Arc Audio \| Bazooka \| Helix \| Pioneer \| Stereo Integrity

10-11-2018, 08:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 68 Posts: 35,319 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684438	I is an engineer. Got degree's in welding and mechanical. Plus criminal justice. I don't play one on tv nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Some engineers just suck. They have no personality. When in college. They are taught analytical thinking. Most don't take any social classes to help them in public. So they have a hard time being with someone who is not an engineer. Most read something in a book, so then it's the gospel. Even if it's wrong. And they think they're right all the time. Most have no hands on experience. They can't tell the difference between a metric crescent wrench and a standard crescent wrench. Hotrodz, ChopsZ and Zingston like this. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

10-11-2018, 09:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
ChopsZ Track Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Central Florida Age: 49 Posts: 965 Drives: 2016 370Z GM 6MT Rep Power: 2301	That pretty much sums it up. Unfortunately, it seems as though my friend is a sucker for such BS. And he says this engineer guy is on his "race" team. I know he takes his Nismo to Road Atlanta all the time, but that doesn't mean anything. Oh well. Better him than me. LOL __________________ She's For Sale! PERFORMANCE: Aero Workz \| Akebono \| BC Racing \| EcuTek \| HKS \| MaxBore \| Motordyne \| Nismo \| RJM \| SPL \| StopTech \| Z1 AUDIO: Arc Audio \| Bazooka \| Helix \| Pioneer \| Stereo Integrity

10-11-2018, 09:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,723 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295378	I’ve been running motul 5.1 for the last 3 years, while tracking the car. Brakes haven’t failed me yet. ChopsZ likes this.

10-12-2018, 09:51 AM	#10 (permalink)
JARblue A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Austin, TX Age: 44 Posts: 36,450 Drives: 11 Z34, 98 E36 M3 Rep Power: 2684441	Some basic reading should set your "engineer" friend straight. Of course, that might be asking too much I routinely have to tell engineers what they screwed up. Stuff they are supposed to know. And I only have a high school diploma. The ability to pass classes and a test rarely translate to competency in the real world in my experience. Also, in Texas there is no subcategory. You get licensed as a professional engineer and you can practice structural or civil or mechanical engineering. No additional training needed. ChopsZ likes this. __________________ 2011 370Z 6MT Sport Gun Metallic \| ARC \| CJM \| Ecutek \| FI \| Fujimura \| R2C \| SPL \| Stillen \| TWM \| Z1 \| ZSpeed \|

10-12-2018, 11:06 AM	#13 (permalink)
ZoomZ Track Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 776 Drives: 17' 370Z Nismo Rep Power: 40618	Just flushed and replaced with Motul 5.1 in another Nissan vehicle of mine. Working nicely. I have read that 5.1 is less viscous than 3 or 4. The idea is that 5.1 works better in the ABS components, but may not have the same pedal feel as 3 or 4. On the mushy side. Just what I have read. Not proven. I might buy into that theory.

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