OEM Sport Brakes vs XP8 vs XP10
 

A recent thread has me wondering...

Now, myself I like OEM. The brakes on the Z are seriously good, scary good IMO. I feel like my soul is being ripped out of my body and continuing down the road when I really get on them.

But, there's always that "itch" for something better. Better how you say? Well, I don't know!

So, anyone who's used the Carbotech XP8 or XP10, coming from the sport brakes - what are your thoughts on them under the obvious criterial - track use (which will be next to never for me, but others may be more), daily driver use (commuting), performance car enthusiast (weekender, typically either cruising open roads or running the occasion errand and taking the long way).

One thing mentioned is they produce more dust than the OEM pads. How much dust? How much noise over OEM?


Any thoughts you can provide, I appreciate!

You can't get any better braking performance than what you have with the OEM pads, the XP pads simply have a greater (and higher) temperature range and may require more pedal pressure when cold (i.e. the first 2 or 3 stops).

Track pads can squeal a fair bit, mainly when cold or really hot. The dust isn't bad in average driving if you wash your car on a weekly basis.

But there really is no good or logical reason to install track pads if you aren't going to the track, you're braking distances will not be reduced.

I've never ever heard track pads squeal once they are warm. Too hot? What pads made noise when they were hot?

This is fasle. XP10's bite wayyyyyyyyyyy harder than stock pads. It's like driving a different car and requires a very gental braking foot. That being said, even though the bite is wayyyyy better with XP10's, tires are your limiting factor for stopping distance. Stock tires can't handle XP10's in my experience. Also they dust more than stock and are pretty noisy sometimes. I would not recomend them for daily use.

I have no experience with XP8's so I can't comment on those.

I'm actually looking at getting some track pads soon and the XP10/XP8 combo keeps coming up. I would LOVE to find a pad that is good enough for HPDEs but also not too much for street use as far as dust and noise goes. I do wash my car every 5-7 days or so as long as the weather isn't crappy so some dust is okay. Any further information on using these or other pads would be greatly appreciated; especially if there's a good recommendation between the two extremes.

/subscribe

to the OP: You do not need XP8's, much less XP10's for the driving on the street. In fact it may even be dangerous if you aren't used to it because track pads often need a little heat to work. I've heard of people forgetting they have track pads on and blowing through stop signs on cold mornings. My recommendation is that if you want "better" without dealing with all the issues associated with track pads, get something like EBC Yellow Stuff. If you want a huge change in performance and are willing to put up with moderate noise and dust get Hawk HP+ pads; they are semi track pads.

I'm going to have to side with import111 (no surprise here); better pads will drastically change braking performance. There's no getting away from physics in the end... a higher coefficient of friction, all else being the same, will decelerate an object quicker and will generate more energy in the process. I will also repeat what he said about tires. XP10's will be a little overwhelming for the stock tires, but should be OK. Tires are the limiting factor...you can only slow down as fast as your tires can grip the road. To really make use of track pads, you should have stickier tires, otherwise you're wasting perfectly good tires and pads.

Also, for the folks who want XP8/XP10s for the track, but will also drive with them on the street. I would say they are streetable; cold bite on them inst as bad as say...a set of endless pads...so you can get away with them. The only real issue that I have with XP's on the street is the damn noise. Get ready to get stared at when you pull up just about anywhere but the race track and lets not even talk about braking while going in reverse...eEeeEeeeeeEEeeEEeeeeeeeeee....eeEEeeEeeE EeE!!!eeeeeEEEE! E! Also, you're going to get used to saying this phrase more often: "They are track pads, that's why"

Track pads make noise when they get hot too, but chances are you wont have to worry too much about getting them up to temperature on the street.....

What about XP12 and XP16? :)

The XP's will bight harder (once warm) but the overall stopping distances will be exactly the same for street driving. The XP's will achieve the same maximum co-efficient of friction that the tires can handle, just with less pedal effort and generate more dust in the process. Tires are the limiting factor as you have stated.

Biting harder doesn't equate to better street performance, for street driving the limiting factor is street tires and the OEM's have more than enough friction to instantly activate an ABS condition. The track is a different situation entirely, I wouldn't run anything other than XP10's up front in that case.

Tires aside (or with stickier tires), braking distance will be greatly reduced by better pads. Also, its a lot easier to get to threshold braking with better pads even on the stock tires. So yeah, like Chris said, if you are really going for ultimate performance you need to swap tires too :) Will HP+ Make a huge difference in your non ABS braking....I think so absolutely... it will change the feel of your car. You dont really know how hard you can brake on the stock tires until you get better pads....

R-comps only :)

I guess I have a stupid question then...

When people say that track pads are noisy - does that also apply to when they aren't being used to slow/stop the car?

nah, only when you are using them. They dont make noise when you are just driving around. Not a dumb question.

Thanks for the confirmation - that's what I thought, just wanted to be sure! :)

No one mentioned it yet, but track pads on the street can eat rotors---high wear rate. Certain track pads are very harsh on rotors. When used correctly, the pads leave a film of material on the rotor. This is friction source. If you use track pads on the street, the braking is done with pad material against on rotor surface, not pad material against pad material. If track pads are too cold, they "scrape" off the pad material and then start wearing on the rotor face.

This is why using track pads on the street can help smooth out rotor shudder when you get street pads too hot and leave uneven deposits (99% of the time wrongly called warped rotors)

Ok..so maybe another newby question....what is the process of changing the pads back and forth for track sessions? I have changed pads on my motorcycles but never attempted on a car....I am assuming it's the same but not sure. Is it as easy as prying apart the calipers and swapping pads or are there more difficulties involved?

If it just takes removing some wheels and popping out some pads, maybe I can just switch back and forth?

Carbotech pads, IMHO are in a class of their own. They have tremendous friction, even at very low temps, very good feel, yet they are entirely rotor friendly for you guys that daily drive your car. A bone cold XP8 or XP10 will have more initial bite then the OEM pad, and most definitely improve braking performance across the board. Give them a try, and I am sure you will be convinced.

Most of the typical track pads we have used such as the PFC01, require a warm up, and are very hard on rotors.

With respect to noise, they actually make very little noise under hard track braking. But they can make some noise-squeek under very light braking, such as pulling into the paddock....or Starbucks. :)

Hope that helps. We run Carbotech pretty much exclusively on the GT-R and we are having some made for our 370z StopTech racing calipers.

If you have the sport brakes, it should be that simple---haven't changed mine yet, but looked them over. Just pull the bridge bolts, spread the pads and lift out from the top. Very simple.

Dont forget to have a place to break them in when you install!

so you don't actually have to remove the calipers? just lift the car and remove the wheels then 2 bolts and you're done?

do tracks usually have equipment to facilitate this?

#1. Looks that easy to me. But again, I haven't tried. There is a spring clip that might take a few extra seconds to place, but looks that simple.

#2 Not sure where you are going, but every track I have been to I needed to bring my own tools. I normally I change into track pads at home and then drive to the track. But I always have a few critical tools with me.....
Jack & jack stand
tools to remove tires
tools/fluids to bleed brakes
tools to change brake pads
Coolant
Glass cleaner
Rubbermaid tub to keep it all in if it rains. Or a tarp to wrap it up.

I instruct for the Audi club. If you go to an Audi event with my "home" chapter, I would say come with no tools. Someone will help you. Then you will know what you need for the next event. I can't comment on open lapping formats (Hooked on Driving, etc).

hehe I run in hooked on driving solo class. I like the club, at least down here its very lax.

good thinkin lincoln. guess i'll be getting a tub for all that crap soon. the HPDE i'm going to isn't part of my ZClub or anything so I won't know anyone. i'll be prepared on my own

As long as both pad compounds are compatible, nothing else needs to be done other than a straight pad swap. If they are not compatible, you should change rotors as well. Talk to whoever you are purchasing pads from to make sure the right choices are made here, or you will be in for a bit more trouble than you might expect.

Chris

^ I think several people on here have already gone straight from stock pads to Carbotechs, not to mention the folks with G37S's that have had them for a while too. Thats a good tip though.

And who recommended those Carbotechs to you???:happydance:

LOL...you and about5 other people. But in only took one session to become a believer.

Nobody here ever talks about the Cobalts huh? They are a bit more abrasive, but they are excellent pads too :)

say Amem Brother!

Is it reasonable to swap out the OEM sport pads for Carbotech XP8s in the front only, leaving the OEMs on the rear the day before a track day? Then after the track day, pop the OEM pads in again? Any light hand sanding of the rotor required during the swaps? I'd like to avoid buying rear pads for just a few track days if possible.

I would do both. By only doing the fronts you would create a braking force inbalance which could be dangerous. Plus you would be burning up your stock rear pads very quickly.

Thanks for the input. For a few HPDEs a year, it seems like XP8s should be fine, right? The price differential for the XP10s is minimal though.

Can someone also comment on the hand-sanding, rebedding issue of swapping pads? I'm not into a new set of rotors at the moment.

XP8's should be fine. The XP10 is a slightly more aggressive compound that will have more initial bite which might take a little getting used to, but lots of professional drivers like that feeling.

Most people are simply swapping these pads back and forth and then rebedding the stock pad on the street after driving 50 miles or so to wear off any pad film. The compounds seem to be reasonably compatible, shouldn't need sanding or separate rotors. Some people drive them on the street but they can be dusty and a little noisy.

Cool, thanks. +rep for quick, helpful answers. The XP8s are probably a big enough upgrade for my purposes.

I am going XP12/XP10 combo with R compounds, on the recommendation from Carbotech. They have my brembo pads right now and are relining them for me.

Yeah for r-comps you could definitely use the extra torque and higher heat capacity.

Carbotech's seem to bed in really quickly so this should not be a problem for you. Because the compounds are all rotor friendly, if you run XP8's you might even consider running them on the street. The only drawback is the noise and increased dust. Just a thought for the lazy among us. :)

Perhaps I can just run the Carbotechs until I swap the winter rims/tires back on. Then I'll switch back to OEM until the summer tires come back out.

Fluids over Pads, Pads over OEM
 

My first day on track was scary to say the least (not because of monsters or voices,,, i see and hear those daily). As I do with everything, I pushed it hard over consecutive 30 minute sessions on Z1 rotors, OEM Bonos, and Stoptech Pads.... (((At High Plains Raceway)))

With this setup, I thought, "im golden, go harder and faster", no poops given...

So, going 120mph @ WoT down a straight and ready to stand on the brakes, the pedal went through the floor!.... so off the track I go...

As i pulled in for pit inspection, I wondered wtf? After an hour to let cool, I realized BRAKE FLUID BOIL.

Went back out on track with cool everything (or cooler) and rocked out my last session but braking earlier for a cushion and emergency plan if this happened twice (and take it easy in traffic) Noted more play (spongy) after the boil out... Drive home was back to 80% normal but the new mission was to get that remedied for future track situations
-----------------------------
Moral of the story: The stop-techs work great on street and track (enough to chirp track tires) but not a competitive track pad. So I bought and I am about to bed in XP8s for next session 2 weeks away. Other Z drivers on the same track (and other car types) swear by carbotechs, so lets try it out

The OEM brake fluid needs a swap out with RBF600 Motul ASAP! I did it myself with a pressure kit (wasEZZZZZ) Also did my clutch fluid right after ( that sewage needed replacing - anything to stretch out the oem CSC life)

I also did a DIY air ducting of my own based upon some DIYs done in here. There's controversy over what warps rotors, and I can say that before I had bad shutters when I got the rotors hot - and after ducting,,, Z E R O shutter (not ABS, just shutter) So, Im doing something right.

The Z1 2-piece slotted rotors are a logical choice for me since disk swap-outs are easier, cheaper and practical for my purposes... Slotted? it looks cool and I like cool... :)

SIDE NOTE: If you decide to track your car: aside from brake/fluid upgrades, you WILL need an aftermarket oil cooler (the 2012+"oem"oil cooler does nothing - get rid of it.... I went with the Fast Intentions 32 row and im still running 230*f max temps when im pushing... to give you an idea. In other words, you will go nuclear if OEM on track all day.

You also want to change your rear camber links that eliminate adjustment bolts ( I went with SPL) unless you are a masochist for tire alignments.

A dedicated second set of Track Tires and Rims are best practice. ( I went with federal 595 rs-rr, for the price, but you cant go wrong with re-71rs )and a second set of sport OEMS or whatever true-forged rims you find (I went with 2015 nismos for my dailys, and the OEM sport 2015s for my track beaters)

Hope this helps

Everything you did and experienced is in here.

http://www.the370z.com/track-autocro...must-read.html