Want brakes but having trouble sorting through the BS

schrute · 12-23-2009, 07:51 PM

^^Looks amazing

Probably stops good too

motoextreme · 12-23-2009, 08:08 PM

Damn that's SEXY..Nice set up!

Rickey89 · 12-23-2009, 08:40 PM

i like the color matching on the rims

nogoodname · 12-24-2009, 02:36 PM

FuszNissan · 12-24-2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nogoodname

Not worth it IMO unless your are tracking your Z. Like mentioned above, new brake fluid, ss lines, and upgraded pads, should be good.

RedComet · 12-24-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nogoodname

AP - Chris_B · 12-29-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motoextreme

Fact is, I like the stock brakes on my Nismo and I know I'm throwing myself under the bus here but cross drilled rotors and calipers look Sweet! I know your supposed to buy for performance but if I get the look I want and performance then WIN WIN.

That said, who's had great experiences with aftermarket brands? I've mentioned several times that I used to own a bike shop, guys would come in that barely know how to ride and buy 8 piston spiegler set ups but they WERE such overkill!!!

Should I just man up and go for the 6 piston set up or is it a waste?

Can I just get by with the fronts or should I do rears too?

We would change calipers out only to have guys freak out when they replaced pads at 6-8 times the cost of stock. I want to keep that in mind too. Last, some aftermarket set ups make a mess of the rims with brake dust, any feedback from experience would be much appreciated.

While you will get plenty of advice on this topic from a variety of different viewpoints, the real issue is how you intend to use the brakes and what goal you are looking to achieve. If it is mostly for better performance that also looks good, I would advise going one direction. But if it is primarily for looks with somewhat lesser improvement, I might have a different response. Please describe in detail how you intend to use the car and what is important to you.

BTW, for those looking for the best of both worlds, the February '10 issue of Modified magazine has a great read on their G35 project wrap up and independent test results. One of the improvements they highlighted was the braking system, which kicked in some pretty amazing results. No BS there!

Chris

ResIpsa · 12-29-2009, 01:22 PM

I posted this on G35 Driver last year during a heated Stop-Tech vs. Wilwood thread. This may help your understanding of BBK's.

Stop-Tech’s front BBK reduces stopping distance by utilizing a smaller piston area than stock. Yes, the Stop-Tech front caliper has less stopping torque than the stock caliper. Stop-Tech BBK's are the best available. But "brake balance" can be achieved by lessor brake companies.

The proper question to ask is the size of the pistons and the rotor. I’ll explain.

First, all brake kits operate on the same principals. Hydraulic fluid is pushed through a line that compresses a piston which pushes the pads on the rotor.

Second, total piston area determines the torque of any given caliper. For example, the stock caliper on a 2005 6MT has two 1.75 inch pistons. Do some math and the total area is 4.8 inches. This calculation uses the pistons on only one side of the caliper. So, a six piston caliper’s piston area would be based on 3 pistons. Strangely, the stock sliding calipers brake as if they had identical opposed pistons (why? Ask a physicist).

Third, the number of pistons does not affect torque. I doesn’t matter if you get 4 inches of piston area with one big piston or 9 tiny pistons.

Fourth, rotor diameter effects brake torque. For example, if the only modification you did to your stock brakes was increase the front rotors to 14 inches then front brake bias would increase 2%. A 13 inch rear rotor would reduce front bias 2%. That rear rotor upgrade is starting to look pretty good now...

Fifth, our cars come from the factory overly front brake biased (74% front/26% rear). Although this increases stopping distance, a front biased vehicle is easier to control.

Therefore, reducing front brake bias will balance the car and decrease stopping times. However, shift the bias too far and the rears may lock up before the front. VERY DANGEROUS!

Stop-Tech has determined that magic amount of brake bias to magically balance a 350z/G35. I would love to know the piston area of the Stop-Tech front BBK.

So you want to know the effectiveness of your specific BBK. Get a ruler and measure the piston areas and rotor diameter.

Then use a brake bias calculator like the one at Tech; Brake Bias. If the ratio is the same as stock, then your brake distance will be unchanged. If the ratio is more front biased you will take longer to stop and unnecessarily burden your front brakes.

If you are going front only, make sure the total piston area (and front brake bias) is slightly less than stock. A general rule of thumb is no more than 5%. Also, search the forums and call the distributor to determine if there are any problems with that specific BBK locking the rears.

For example, I have Wilwood 6 piston calipers on 13 inch rotors. The total piston area is 4.06 or .74 inches less than stock resulting in 72%/28% bias or 2% more rear bias.

A Wilwood 6 piston superlight BBK with a 13 inch rotor will stop in a shorter distance than stock.

Of course different BBK's will have better heat dissipating characteristics, pedal modulation, etc... but that is for another post.

AP - Chris_B · 12-29-2009, 06:22 PM

Allow me to jump in here to expand upon two interrelated (yet substantially different) points that are often missed in a brake balance discussion:

1. Mechanical Balance: While it is important to get front/rear brake balance dialed in for a specific vehicle, there is no "optimum" mechanical balance -- only trade-offs. What I mean by that is the theoretically ideal F/R balance for a stock vehicle on stock springs and dampers is no longer ideal for the same vehicle that has been lowered and rides on stiffer springs/dampers. This is due to the reduction in forward weight transfer under braking on the lowered car. Since less weight is transferred forward in this case, the rear axle can contribute more before rear wheel lockup becomes a concern. This is why race cars have two separate master cylinders and a balance bar that can be adjusted by the driver. As the fuel load decreases, the car's weight balance shifts and the driver adjusts for those changes.

So in order to get a street/track brake system ready to be sold to the public (as opposed to a pure racing system that is fined tuned by engineers at each individual track for a chosen suspension setup and a driver's particular style of driving), a mechanical balance is chosen that is often slightly more aggressive than the OE system. But mechanical balance can't be shifted excessively rearward or it would be unsafe for some drivers with some vehicle configurations.

By the way, "balanced brake systems" are nothing new. In fact, AP Racing has been doing this for nearly 100 years (originally under the Automotive Products plc parent). But as important as mechanical balance is, it is only the starting point -- not the complete end goal.

2. Thermal Balance: This is the art and science of getting each axle to contribute to the best of its ability while maintaining a predetermined temperature range. Although many of us prefer a linear response from our brake pads (although some don't!), the pad/rotor temperature has a lot to do with the way the pad responds. If we are using the same pad compound on both front and rear, we would want the temperature of both the front and rear rotor to remain in the same range. Identical F/R temps are nearly impossible to achieve for a variety of reasons, but the goal is to stay in the sweet spot at all times -- on the street or on the track.

To achieve optimal thermal balance, often special thinner rear rotors need to be made. If they are too thick and/or heavy, they will run substantially cooler than the front and won't contribute to overall brake balance the same in all conditions. That is, the system may be well-balanced when cold, but could start to become out of balance as temperatures increase. This is not ideal at all as the front pads might be in the middle of their sweet spot and the rear pads could be running too cold and not doing the job as well as they need to be doing it.

When considering a 4-wheel brake upgrade (which I recommend serious 370Z owners do), check on the thickness of the rear rotor. If it is 28mm or 32mm instead of 24-26mm, it was probably originally designed as a front rotor that was later adapted to rear applications. It is often found paired with a revised front caliper, now on the rear with smaller pistons. Yes, it can be set up for a theoretically correct mechanical balance, but it will run a lot cooler than the front due to a rotor and caliper that are over-sized for the job at hand. Also, the rear brake system will be a lot heavier than it needs to be -- another unfortunate trade-off.

One example: Thermal balance concerns are the primary reason that development of the carbon-ceramic system on the R35 GT-R led to a front cooling system only. After brake temperatures were monitored during a variety of street and track conditions, it was discovered that the front brakes needed cooling, but the rears were fine. In fact, adding cooling to the rear brakes would have hurt overall brake performance as they would almost always be running too cold.

Are rotor size, number of pistons and piston diameter important? Certainly! But just as important are the thermal properties of a brake system. This is where years of experience at the top level of motorsports pays off. Sure, the products may end up being a little more expensive (although sometimes not by very much!), it is always worth it to go with a system that is derived from decades of experience with extreme duty applications.

The magazine article I referenced above gives a good indication of what a brake system is capable of if it is balanced -- both mechanically and thermally.

Chris Bernal
STILLEN / AP Racing

ResIpsa · 12-29-2009, 07:10 PM

If you can afford it... or if you really mean it... AP Racing is the real stuff!

And thanks for not flaming a "forum expert

" who wanted to better understand how braking systems work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

Allow me to jump in here to expand upon two interrelated (yet substantially different) points that are often missed in a brake balance discussion:

1. Mechanical Balance: While it is important to get front/rear brake balance dialed in for a specific vehicle, there is no "optimum" mechanical balance -- only trade-offs. What I mean by that is the theoretically ideal F/R balance for a stock vehicle on stock springs and dampers is no longer ideal for the same vehicle that has been lowered and rides on stiffer springs/dampers. This is due to the reduction in forward weight transfer under braking on the lowered car. Since less weight is transferred forward in this case, the rear axle can contribute more before rear wheel lockup becomes a concern. This is why race cars have two separate master cylinders and a balance bar that can be adjusted by the driver. As the fuel load decreases, the car's weight balance shifts and the driver adjusts for those changes.

So in order to get a street/track brake system ready to be sold to the public (as opposed to a pure racing system that is fined tuned by engineers at each individual track for a chosen suspension setup and a driver's particular style of driving), a mechanical balance is chosen that is often slightly more aggressive than the OE system. But mechanical balance can't be shifted excessively rearward or it would be unsafe for some drivers with some vehicle configurations.

By the way, "balanced brake systems" are nothing new. In fact, AP Racing has been doing this for nearly 100 years (originally under the Automotive Products plc parent). But as important as mechanical balance is, it is only the starting point -- not the complete end goal.

2. Thermal Balance: This is the art and science of getting each axle to contribute to the best of its ability while maintaining a predetermined temperature range. Although many of us prefer a linear response from our brake pads (although some don't!), the pad/rotor temperature has a lot to do with the way the pad responds. If we are using the same pad compound on both front and rear, we would want the temperature of both the front and rear rotor to remain in the same range. Identical F/R temps are nearly impossible to achieve for a variety of reasons, but the goal is to stay in the sweet spot at all times -- on the street or on the track.

To achieve optimal thermal balance, often special thinner rear rotors need to be made. If they are too thick and/or heavy, they will run substantially cooler than the front and won't contribute to overall brake balance the same in all conditions. That is, the system may be well-balanced when cold, but could start to become out of balance as temperatures increase. This is not ideal at all as the front pads might be in the middle of their sweet spot and the rear pads could be running too cold and not doing the job as well as they need to be doing it.

When considering a 4-wheel brake upgrade (which I recommend serious 370Z owners do), check on the thickness of the rear rotor. If it is 28mm or 32mm instead of 24-26mm, it was probably originally designed as a front rotor that was later adapted to rear applications. It is often found paired with a revised front caliper, now on the rear with smaller pistons. Yes, it can be set up for a theoretically correct mechanical balance, but it will run a lot cooler than the front due to a rotor and caliper that are over-sized for the job at hand. Also, the rear brake system will be a lot heavier than it needs to be -- another unfortunate trade-off.

One example: Thermal balance concerns are the primary reason that development of the carbon-ceramic system on the R35 GT-R led to a front cooling system only. After brake temperatures were monitored during a variety of street and track conditions, it was discovered that the front brakes needed cooling, but the rears were fine. In fact, adding cooling to the rear brakes would have hurt overall brake performance as they would almost always be running too cold.

Are rotor size, number of pistons and piston diameter important? Certainly! But just as important are the thermal properties of a brake system. This is where years of experience at the top level of motorsports pays off. Sure, the products may end up being a little more expensive (although sometimes not by very much!), it is always worth it to go with a system that is derived from decades of experience with extreme duty applications.

The magazine article I referenced above gives a good indication of what a brake system is capable of if it is balanced -- both mechanically and thermally.

Chris Bernal
STILLEN / AP Racing

AP - Chris_B · 12-29-2009, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResIpsa

If you can afford it... or if you really mean it... AP Racing is the real stuff!

No worries. And, the current prices of the 6-piston front/4-piston rear systems mentioned above are:

AP Racing (special sale found on this forum): $2659 (front) + $2136 (rear) = $4795 (normally $5349 list)

StopTech (special sale found on this forum): $2695 (front) + $2595 (rear) = $5290

I'm not sure what the current pricing for the Brembo's, but their list is $7545 for the standard calipers and $13,650 for the "GT-R" calipers.

Hmmm.......looks like the "real stuff" is a comparative bargain right now.

Chris

motoextreme · 12-29-2009, 09:46 PM

I thought I knew a bit about brakes as I used to sell quite a few sets out of my old Bike shop but I have a whole new understanding now. Our options were full floating, cast iron etc etc but there were downsides to all.

I really appreciate the time you put into this thread, its informative and not terribly biased.

Thanks again! Great stuff!

ResIpsa · 12-30-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

No worries. And, the current prices of the 6-piston front/4-piston rear systems mentioned above are:

AP Racing (special sale found on this forum): $2659 (front) + $2136 (rear) = $4795 (normally $5349 list)

StopTech (special sale found on this forum): $2695 (front) + $2595 (rear) = $5290

I'm not sure what the current pricing for the Brembo's, but their list is $7545 for the standard calipers and $13,650 for the "GT-R" calipers.

Hmmm.......looks like the "real stuff" is a comparative bargain right now.

Chris

Touche!

nogoodname · 01-08-2010, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedComet

those IMPUL brakes are 9000 dollars plus shipping from japan

just checked it....lol

12-23-2009, 07:51 PM	#16 (permalink)
schrute Track Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: utah Posts: 781 Drives: my z every day Rep Power: 17	^^Looks amazing Probably stops good too __________________ my journal \| 2009 370z touring \| 6mt \| platinum graphite \| my album second skin \| mr works \| fast intentions \| ssr \| eibach \| hotchkis \| spc \| toyo \| bluebatmobile \| v-led \| jwt \| ventureshield \| tinted tails

12-23-2009, 08:08 PM	#17 (permalink)
motoextreme Track Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Chino Hills, CA Posts: 971 Drives: Nismo NO MODS! Rep Power: 369	Damn that's SEXY..Nice set up! __________________ Fast Intensions / NST / Mishimoto / Alpine / JDM / Volk / Brembo / Rotora / Seibon / Stillen / Password: JDM / KW / MR Works / RAW / Sun Auto / B&M / Amplified Motorsports

12-23-2009, 08:40 PM	#18 (permalink)
Rickey89 Base Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: San Antonio/Texas Posts: 203 Drives: 09 370z BS/Sprt Man Rep Power: 16	i like the color matching on the rims __________________ -Rickey 09 Brilliant Silver 370z Manual W/Sprt Pck

12-29-2009, 01:22 PM	#23 (permalink)
ResIpsa Track Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 564 Drives: 09 RACING HEN Rep Power: 338	The Truth About BBK's I posted this on G35 Driver last year during a heated Stop-Tech vs. Wilwood thread. This may help your understanding of BBK's. Stop-Tech’s front BBK reduces stopping distance by utilizing a smaller piston area than stock. Yes, the Stop-Tech front caliper has less stopping torque than the stock caliper. Stop-Tech BBK's are the best available. But "brake balance" can be achieved by lessor brake companies. The proper question to ask is the size of the pistons and the rotor. I’ll explain. First, all brake kits operate on the same principals. Hydraulic fluid is pushed through a line that compresses a piston which pushes the pads on the rotor. Second, total piston area determines the torque of any given caliper. For example, the stock caliper on a 2005 6MT has two 1.75 inch pistons. Do some math and the total area is 4.8 inches. This calculation uses the pistons on only one side of the caliper. So, a six piston caliper’s piston area would be based on 3 pistons. Strangely, the stock sliding calipers brake as if they had identical opposed pistons (why? Ask a physicist). Third, the number of pistons does not affect torque. I doesn’t matter if you get 4 inches of piston area with one big piston or 9 tiny pistons. Fourth, rotor diameter effects brake torque. For example, if the only modification you did to your stock brakes was increase the front rotors to 14 inches then front brake bias would increase 2%. A 13 inch rear rotor would reduce front bias 2%. That rear rotor upgrade is starting to look pretty good now... Fifth, our cars come from the factory overly front brake biased (74% front/26% rear). Although this increases stopping distance, a front biased vehicle is easier to control. Therefore, reducing front brake bias will balance the car and decrease stopping times. However, shift the bias too far and the rears may lock up before the front. VERY DANGEROUS! Stop-Tech has determined that magic amount of brake bias to magically balance a 350z/G35. I would love to know the piston area of the Stop-Tech front BBK. So you want to know the effectiveness of your specific BBK. Get a ruler and measure the piston areas and rotor diameter. Then use a brake bias calculator like the one at Tech; Brake Bias. If the ratio is the same as stock, then your brake distance will be unchanged. If the ratio is more front biased you will take longer to stop and unnecessarily burden your front brakes. If you are going front only, make sure the total piston area (and front brake bias) is slightly less than stock. A general rule of thumb is no more than 5%. Also, search the forums and call the distributor to determine if there are any problems with that specific BBK locking the rears. For example, I have Wilwood 6 piston calipers on 13 inch rotors. The total piston area is 4.06 or .74 inches less than stock resulting in 72%/28% bias or 2% more rear bias. A Wilwood 6 piston superlight BBK with a 13 inch rotor will stop in a shorter distance than stock. Of course different BBK's will have better heat dissipating characteristics, pedal modulation, etc... but that is for another post. __________________ The Reed Law Firm; Michael Fasano VA Attorney and Counselor at Law: A Virginia Traffic, Criminal, and Family Lawyer.https://reedlawva.com/

12-29-2009, 09:46 PM	#27 (permalink)
motoextreme Track Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Chino Hills, CA Posts: 971 Drives: Nismo NO MODS! Rep Power: 369	I thought I knew a bit about brakes as I used to sell quite a few sets out of my old Bike shop but I have a whole new understanding now. Our options were full floating, cast iron etc etc but there were downsides to all. I really appreciate the time you put into this thread, its informative and not terribly biased. Thanks again! Great stuff! __________________ Fast Intensions / NST / Mishimoto / Alpine / JDM / Volk / Brembo / Rotora / Seibon / Stillen / Password: JDM / KW / MR Works / RAW / Sun Auto / B&M / Amplified Motorsports

12-24-2009, 02:36 PM	#19 (permalink)
nogoodname Lifetime Premium Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 22,357 Drives: E46 M3 Rep Power: 1765

12-29-2009, 06:22 PM	#24 (permalink)
AP - Chris_B Base Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: SoCal Posts: 135 Drives: Many Rep Power: 235	Allow me to jump in here to expand upon two interrelated (yet substantially different) points that are often missed in a brake balance discussion: 1. Mechanical Balance: While it is important to get front/rear brake balance dialed in for a specific vehicle, there is no "optimum" mechanical balance -- only trade-offs. What I mean by that is the theoretically ideal F/R balance for a stock vehicle on stock springs and dampers is no longer ideal for the same vehicle that has been lowered and rides on stiffer springs/dampers. This is due to the reduction in forward weight transfer under braking on the lowered car. Since less weight is transferred forward in this case, the rear axle can contribute more before rear wheel lockup becomes a concern. This is why race cars have two separate master cylinders and a balance bar that can be adjusted by the driver. As the fuel load decreases, the car's weight balance shifts and the driver adjusts for those changes. So in order to get a street/track brake system ready to be sold to the public (as opposed to a pure racing system that is fined tuned by engineers at each individual track for a chosen suspension setup and a driver's particular style of driving), a mechanical balance is chosen that is often slightly more aggressive than the OE system. But mechanical balance can't be shifted excessively rearward or it would be unsafe for some drivers with some vehicle configurations. By the way, "balanced brake systems" are nothing new. In fact, AP Racing has been doing this for nearly 100 years (originally under the Automotive Products plc parent). But as important as mechanical balance is, it is only the starting point -- not the complete end goal. 2. Thermal Balance: This is the art and science of getting each axle to contribute to the best of its ability while maintaining a predetermined temperature range. Although many of us prefer a linear response from our brake pads (although some don't!), the pad/rotor temperature has a lot to do with the way the pad responds. If we are using the same pad compound on both front and rear, we would want the temperature of both the front and rear rotor to remain in the same range. Identical F/R temps are nearly impossible to achieve for a variety of reasons, but the goal is to stay in the sweet spot at all times -- on the street or on the track. To achieve optimal thermal balance, often special thinner rear rotors need to be made. If they are too thick and/or heavy, they will run substantially cooler than the front and won't contribute to overall brake balance the same in all conditions. That is, the system may be well-balanced when cold, but could start to become out of balance as temperatures increase. This is not ideal at all as the front pads might be in the middle of their sweet spot and the rear pads could be running too cold and not doing the job as well as they need to be doing it. When considering a 4-wheel brake upgrade (which I recommend serious 370Z owners do), check on the thickness of the rear rotor. If it is 28mm or 32mm instead of 24-26mm, it was probably originally designed as a front rotor that was later adapted to rear applications. It is often found paired with a revised front caliper, now on the rear with smaller pistons. Yes, it can be set up for a theoretically correct mechanical balance, but it will run a lot cooler than the front due to a rotor and caliper that are over-sized for the job at hand. Also, the rear brake system will be a lot heavier than it needs to be -- another unfortunate trade-off. One example: Thermal balance concerns are the primary reason that development of the carbon-ceramic system on the R35 GT-R led to a front cooling system only. After brake temperatures were monitored during a variety of street and track conditions, it was discovered that the front brakes needed cooling, but the rears were fine. In fact, adding cooling to the rear brakes would have hurt overall brake performance as they would almost always be running too cold. Are rotor size, number of pistons and piston diameter important? Certainly! But just as important are the thermal properties of a brake system. This is where years of experience at the top level of motorsports pays off. Sure, the products may end up being a little more expensive (although sometimes not by very much!), it is always worth it to go with a system that is derived from decades of experience with extreme duty applications. The magazine article I referenced above gives a good indication of what a brake system is capable of if it is balanced -- both mechanically and thermally. Chris Bernal STILLEN / AP Racing

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