Reluctant to upgrade suspension

gladeslvrcoq · 12-22-2009, 01:50 PM

LOL! For real...don't think just because it happens in FORZA it happens in real life.

shabarivas · 12-22-2009, 01:51 PM

Well - Sway bars help you set your car up for generally over/under steer. Factory Zs understeer a lot - so you could get a ratio of stiffness between the front and back that will bring it closer to neutral.

A lot of major suspension tuners say that all the suspension work in the world will only give you a 5-15% increase in handling...

corner3garage · 12-22-2009, 01:56 PM

^that is not necessarily true. It all depends on the car, and for example if you are tuning a suspension on a Porsche gt3 the yield isn't going to be that much as its already pretty good from the factory. If you are talking about changing suspension in a 240sx the suspension benefits could be way more than 15% increase.

shabarivas · 12-22-2009, 02:19 PM

Ehhh ... well I guess thats true... But how exactly do you measure suspension increase? I am talking about keeping the chassis stock... Lets say a 370 can take corner A at 60mph stock... I mean with the BEST set of coils I would not see it taking it past 70... I have seen my buddy tune his G35s suspension after he got his cusco's and it took him 2 months to get it handling like stock - and he had to run his car w/ no sway bars lol... after another month he could take his calibration turn about 5mph faster than stock. Of course if you picked up a POS car - maybe the improvement is higher.

kannibul · 12-22-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shabarivas

Well - Sway bars help you set your car up for generally over/under steer. Factory Zs understeer a lot - so you could get a ratio of stiffness between the front and back that will bring it closer to neutral.

A lot of major suspension tuners say that all the suspension work in the world will only give you a 5-15% increase in handling...

I have more of a problem with driver-initiated oversteer...with VDC off...

The only solution I've found so far is to leave it in the garage, or leave VDC on - lol...

Mike · 12-22-2009, 03:25 PM

I hate adjustable stuff too, for the same reason spearfish said, I would be afraid to screw it up.

I'm very happy with the eibachs, stillen sways (with rear on stiffest) and 275s all around. The car is very neutral now.

RCZ · 12-22-2009, 04:34 PM

I dont think there's anything wrong with adjustable stuff, just as long as you know what youre doing and why youre doing it. You have to build up a mental database of what each change does and how it will affect other changes and how everything works together to change the car's behavior.

Like Modshack said, its all about balance. For someone who is starting out, I would say go for a neutral setup with tendency to understeer. Set the rear sway to the softest settings (closest hole to the tips of the bar) and go from there. 99% of drivers' first impulse when they begin to slide is to let go of the gas and even press the brakes. Those are the best things to do when you understeer and the worst things to do when you oversteer. This is why most road cars are setup to understeer from the factory, because its safer for the drivers. I find it a little scary sometimes that beginner drivers think its good to set the rear sway to stiffest and call it a day.

Then it rains, they spin and dont know what happened. Truth is that most of these guys who don't know what they are doing are only safe because they drive their cars so far under the limit that it doesnt matter if the car is poorly setup. Its when you throw in rain or slippery road surfaces that disaster happens.

Dont be one of those guys, understand and learn what the car will do at the limit. Take an HPDE course, go on a wet skidpad, etc. Tons of fun and you learn to really drive the car.

370z4Steve · 12-22-2009, 06:44 PM

you can read all about what tweaking and changing this and that constitutes a better handling car....
but unless you first improve you own abilities first and become very attuned to how the car responds or fails to respond to certain inputs via braking or on the gas or built up lateral forces in either of those case while cornering..it simply doesnt matter what someone tells you if you dont cant percieve anything as "better" on track or street and then adjust accordingly..if its simply a smoother ride your after then you better stick to stock or just springs (well for now at least)...

spearfish25 · 12-24-2009, 07:26 AM

Great information here. Thanks to everyone for the replies.

My Forza analogy was merely an observation that these changes and adjustments are probably both beyond my understanding and abilities for this car. As others have said, I could easily make changes and not appreciate the difference or end with a setup that performs worse than stock.

During my rainy track day, I ran into power oversteer more often than understeer and overall I find the stock setup to be really nice. Perhaps down the road I can begin to tinker and enjoy some of these suspension changes.

370Zsteve · 12-24-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spearfish25

I keep looking at other upgrades for the car, and the trackday instructors all say to focus on handling upgrades before horsepower. The obvious handling upgrades are coilovers and antisways, but I've been very reluctant to make these changes.

While playing Forza 3 today, I realized why. There are so many adjustments for the suspension that I don't think I'll find a setting that's better than my stock setup (ie I won't have the time to find the setting and may not even appreciate it if I did). Am I wrong? Does the upgrade alone with the 'middle' settings result in an improvement, or are coilovers only beneficial if you dedicate hours upon hours to track testing and adjusting? I certainly don't want to make my car handle WORSE than stock, but I don't have the time to fiddle with suspension adjustments (nor do I think I'd appreciate some of the fine nuances in these adjustments unless someone was demonstrating it for me).

Any thoughts?

What about when you are on the street? Are you willing to give up the compliance the stock setup gives you? Are you ready to sacrifice some comfort for a harsher ride? That should be up top of the list, imo.

370Zsteve · 12-24-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

I find it a little scary sometimes that beginner drivers think its good to set the rear sway to stiffest and call it a day.

Then it rains, they spin and dont know what happened. Truth is that most of these guys who don't know what they are doing are only safe because they drive their cars so far under the limit that it doesnt matter if the car is poorly setup. Its when you throw in rain or slippery road surfaces that disaster happens.

Dont be one of those guys, understand and learn what the car will do at the limit. Take an HPDE course, go on a wet skidpad, etc. Tons of fun and you learn to really drive the car.

Sage advice for just about anyone.

kannibul · 12-24-2009, 09:16 AM

My goals are pretty simple:

1) Correcting oversteer-like slip on bumpy interchange ramps.
2) Better street ride overall. It's a bit too soft w/ slow bumps, a bit too sharp on sharp bumps.

I figure that out of the box it'll be close/improvement...I may have to go out of state to find someone who can adjust them properly...which I guess it corner-balancing

Do I need all that? Doubt it...

12-22-2009, 01:56 PM	#18 (permalink)
corner3garage The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Laguna Hills, CA Posts: 9,879 Drives: 240sx, 350z, 370z Rep Power: 35	^that is not necessarily true. It all depends on the car, and for example if you are tuning a suspension on a Porsche gt3 the yield isn't going to be that much as its already pretty good from the factory. If you are talking about changing suspension in a 240sx the suspension benefits could be way more than 15% increase. __________________ Corner3motorsports.com

12-22-2009, 03:25 PM	#21 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2186	I hate adjustable stuff too, for the same reason spearfish said, I would be afraid to screw it up. I'm very happy with the eibachs, stillen sways (with rear on stiffest) and 275s all around. The car is very neutral now. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

12-24-2009, 07:26 AM	#24 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1856	Great information here. Thanks to everyone for the replies. My Forza analogy was merely an observation that these changes and adjustments are probably both beyond my understanding and abilities for this car. As others have said, I could easily make changes and not appreciate the difference or end with a setup that performs worse than stock. During my rainy track day, I ran into power oversteer more often than understeer and overall I find the stock setup to be really nice. Perhaps down the road I can begin to tinker and enjoy some of these suspension changes. __________________ 2013 Cadillac V-Wagon, RIP Z

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12-22-2009, 01:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
gladeslvrcoq Base Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: everglades of OC Posts: 115 Drives: 55 Rep Power: 16	LOL! For real...don't think just because it happens in FORZA it happens in real life.

12-22-2009, 01:51 PM	#17 (permalink)
shabarivas A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,188 Drives: 370z MB 6mt Rep Power: 914	Well - Sway bars help you set your car up for generally over/under steer. Factory Zs understeer a lot - so you could get a ratio of stiffness between the front and back that will bring it closer to neutral. A lot of major suspension tuners say that all the suspension work in the world will only give you a 5-15% increase in handling...

12-22-2009, 02:19 PM	#19 (permalink)
shabarivas A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,188 Drives: 370z MB 6mt Rep Power: 914	Ehhh ... well I guess thats true... But how exactly do you measure suspension increase? I am talking about keeping the chassis stock... Lets say a 370 can take corner A at 60mph stock... I mean with the BEST set of coils I would not see it taking it past 70... I have seen my buddy tune his G35s suspension after he got his cusco's and it took him 2 months to get it handling like stock - and he had to run his car w/ no sway bars lol... after another month he could take his calibration turn about 5mph faster than stock. Of course if you picked up a POS car - maybe the improvement is higher.

12-22-2009, 04:34 PM	#22 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	I dont think there's anything wrong with adjustable stuff, just as long as you know what youre doing and why youre doing it. You have to build up a mental database of what each change does and how it will affect other changes and how everything works together to change the car's behavior. Like Modshack said, its all about balance. For someone who is starting out, I would say go for a neutral setup with tendency to understeer. Set the rear sway to the softest settings (closest hole to the tips of the bar) and go from there. 99% of drivers' first impulse when they begin to slide is to let go of the gas and even press the brakes. Those are the best things to do when you understeer and the worst things to do when you oversteer. This is why most road cars are setup to understeer from the factory, because its safer for the drivers. I find it a little scary sometimes that beginner drivers think its good to set the rear sway to stiffest and call it a day. Then it rains, they spin and dont know what happened. Truth is that most of these guys who don't know what they are doing are only safe because they drive their cars so far under the limit that it doesnt matter if the car is poorly setup. Its when you throw in rain or slippery road surfaces that disaster happens. Dont be one of those guys, understand and learn what the car will do at the limit. Take an HPDE course, go on a wet skidpad, etc. Tons of fun and you learn to really drive the car.

12-22-2009, 06:44 PM	#23 (permalink)
370z4Steve Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: west Posts: 231 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 672	you can read all about what tweaking and changing this and that constitutes a better handling car.... but unless you first improve you own abilities first and become very attuned to how the car responds or fails to respond to certain inputs via braking or on the gas or built up lateral forces in either of those case while cornering..it simply doesnt matter what someone tells you if you dont cant percieve anything as "better" on track or street and then adjust accordingly..if its simply a smoother ride your after then you better stick to stock or just springs (well for now at least)...

12-24-2009, 09:16 AM	#27 (permalink)
kannibul A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Jenks, OK Posts: 2,281 Drives: 370z Touring/Sport Rep Power: 267	My goals are pretty simple: 1) Correcting oversteer-like slip on bumpy interchange ramps. 2) Better street ride overall. It's a bit too soft w/ slow bumps, a bit too sharp on sharp bumps. I figure that out of the box it'll be close/improvement...I may have to go out of state to find someone who can adjust them properly...which I guess it corner-balancing Do I need all that? Doubt it...