Unstable during braking carbotech xp10/xp8

MaysEffect · 10-16-2017, 08:21 PM

Have you been monitoring tire pressures.

Hotrodz · 10-16-2017, 10:46 PM

Okay, I am no where near stock on my suspension. I am running the SPL catalog, bushing and and arms. I also have a Wavetrak rear diff. My spring rates 13K front and 11K rear. I am running at the full height of the coil over which make it about an inch lower than stock. I have removed all the stuff out of the trunk and the latest change included detaching the rear sway bar. I have no issues at all with squirm at all even when braking from 130 down to about 40mph.

I assume you have SS brake lines and good fluid as well? I am sure stiffening up your suspension will help. As mentioned above tires and proper inflation will make a difference.

loufitness · 10-16-2017, 11:17 PM

I experienced this feeling as well when running XP8's all the way around. Went to XP10 upfront and XP8 in the rear. I can't say it is any better with XP10/XP8...but it is certainly not worse. I am wondering about the the tire pressure recommendations and keeping the spare tire in the rear. I typically run at 40 PSI all the way around (taken immediately coming off track) and run with out the spare.
What are the recommendations on Front vs Rear Tire pressures...as well as with or without spare?

My alignment settings are as follows:
Front: -2.75 Camber; +.05 Toe with Total Toe = +.12 
Rear: -2.5 Camber; +.15 Toe with Total Toe = +.35

Hotrodz · 10-16-2017, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loufitness

I experienced this feeling as well when running XP8's all the way around. Went to XP10 upfront and XP8 in the rear. I can't say it is any better with XP10/XP8...but it is certainly not worse. I am wondering about the the tire pressure recommendations and keeping the spare tire in the rear. I typically run at 40 PSI all the way around (taken immediately coming off track) and run with out the spare.
What are the recommendations on Front vs Rear Tire pressures...as well as with or without spare?

My alignment settings are as follows:
Front: -2.75 Camber; +.05 Toe with Total Toe = +.12 
Rear: -2.5 Camber; +.15 Toe with Total Toe = +.35

What brand of tire are you running? I am running Toyo r888 and Nitto nt01...After asking others at the track and my own driving experience I try to keep my tire temps between 34 and 36psi hot after finishing a session. The r888 felt better to me with all tire temps being the same. On the nt01 I run two less pounds in the rear. I start the air pressures at 27psi and make adjustments from there. As I am getting better I will start measuring the tire temperature to make sure I can stay as close to the recommended tire temperature as possible.

Rusty · 10-16-2017, 11:59 PM

Best thing to do is to keep a note book of all the changes you make. And record what each change feels like.

MaysEffect · 10-17-2017, 12:17 AM

Tire pressures are very much dependent on alignment and weight balance. If you have more weight in the rear and additional negative camber i would keep the pressures the same front and rear no greater than 39psi hot

More camber and no additional weight - less pressure overall but less in the rear (this will induce a bit of understeer at first, drive accordingly)

Also like Hotrodz said, its dependent on tires too. More so the tread depth, design and sidewall profile.

Extremes or summer sports - higher cold pressures around 35-37psi.

Lower profile tires need less air for the same level of rigidity. Stock or larger profile tires require a bit more.

Also i personally don't recommend running low pressures under 30psi unless you know you will be putting a lot of force into them and have a stiff enough suspension to force pressure on to them like Rodz car.

fryzia23 · 10-17-2017, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrodz

Okay, I am no where near stock on my suspension. I am running the SPL catalog, bushing and and arms. I also have a Wavetrak rear diff. My spring rates 13K front and 11K rear. I am running at the full height of the coil over which make it about an inch lower than stock. I have removed all the stuff out of the trunk and the latest change included detaching the rear sway bar. I have no issues at all with squirm at all even when braking from 130 down to about 40mph.

I assume you have SS brake lines and good fluid as well? I am sure stiffening up your suspension will help. As mentioned above tires and proper inflation will make a difference.

Yes, I have SS lines with rbf600 fluid. When it comes down to tire pressures, I did try go higher/lower psi and appeared it did not make any difference during braking. I will re-do my alignment and go from there. If nothing changes, I will use my nismo pads for my last event of the season.

ValidusVentus · 11-06-2017, 03:23 PM

My 2c:

-Check to make sure you have at least .15 degrees toe in per wheel in the rear. If not, make that happen.
-Try to ensure that you aren't overdriving the rear tires and getting them greasy(er) than the fronts. Lowering your rear pressure will help on grip and make them a little warmer but its still possible to overdrive them and still get them too hot. if you raise the pressure back there, as long as you aren't overdriving them they should stay a bit cooler, but it will lower their grip a bit and make it easier to overdrive them.
-I don't recommend swapping back to xp8s all around since that pad is not nearly heat tolerant enough for our heavy cars front brakes if you use them near their abilities. Furthermore, a swap to xp8 in the front from xp10s would effectively alter your brake bias more towards the rear. I don't see that as being a good thing for stability under braking if you are already having issues.
-Maybe try being slightly slower on your application and release of the brakes.

All that being said I think all the slush in the rear stock suspension between the rubber bushings and fluid filled bushings contributes to this. Also as the suspension unloads in the rear and goes into droop I believe the suspension geometry starts to generate toe out, causing instability, well that and the fact that the wheels are pulling back pretty hard on all those flexible bushings while braking, adding more toe out. Which may be why having stiffer springs in front seems to mitigate this some. It doesn't change the amount of weight transfer but it does reduce the amount of suspension movement in droop in the rear.

flyguy0812 · 11-30-2017, 06:04 PM

I did the install of a switch that turns off the yaw sensor. This mod (off mod) along with TCS off made a huge improvement in the handling and brake wear on the track.

NVSTR · 12-24-2017, 12:17 PM

Yeah. I have gotten a weird lateral "bucking" at higher speeds. I still felt in control, but it was a little squirrely.

I also have XP10's & XP8's

10-16-2017, 10:46 PM	#17 (permalink)
Hotrodz A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: NW, AZ Posts: 9,330 Drives: 10 Nissan 370z Nismo Rep Power: 2684385	Okay, I am no where near stock on my suspension. I am running the SPL catalog, bushing and and arms. I also have a Wavetrak rear diff. My spring rates 13K front and 11K rear. I am running at the full height of the coil over which make it about an inch lower than stock. I have removed all the stuff out of the trunk and the latest change included detaching the rear sway bar. I have no issues at all with squirm at all even when braking from 130 down to about 40mph. I assume you have SS brake lines and good fluid as well? I am sure stiffening up your suspension will help. As mentioned above tires and proper inflation will make a difference. Rusty likes this. __________________ *Fast Intentions TT Installed and Tuned by Seb at SpecialtyZ 610whp 560tq:\|Fast Intentions 3" TT-TDX*\|SpecialtyZ/Fast Intentions 72 Row Oil Cooler\|SZ 6 Puck Clutch & Flywheel\|3GsCustoms\|Z1\|Wavetrac\|Hotchkis\|Whiteline \|Blitz\|Fortune Auto 500\|Fujimura\|SPL\|H&R\|TK\|TWM\|RPM Rollbar\|Sparco\|Next Level Performance\|TrackSpec\|AeroFlow Dynamics\|Pioneer\|

10-16-2017, 11:17 PM	#18 (permalink)
loufitness Base Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisville, Ky Posts: 74 Drives: 14 370Z Pearl White Rep Power: 3366	I experienced this feeling as well when running XP8's all the way around. Went to XP10 upfront and XP8 in the rear. I can't say it is any better with XP10/XP8...but it is certainly not worse. I am wondering about the the tire pressure recommendations and keeping the spare tire in the rear. I typically run at 40 PSI all the way around (taken immediately coming off track) and run with out the spare. What are the recommendations on Front vs Rear Tire pressures...as well as with or without spare? My alignment settings are as follows: Front: -2.75 Camber; +.05 Toe with Total Toe = +.12  Rear: -2.5 Camber; +.15 Toe with Total Toe = +.35 __________________ 2014 Pearl White Sport Pkg / Motordyne Shockwave / 25 Row Setrab / SS Brake lines / Motul RBF 600 / Hawk DTC-60 / SPL Upper Control Arms / Enkei RP07 / Hankook RS4 275/40/18 Square / Schroth Harness / EVO-R Carbon Fiber Accents / Bilstein B16 PSS 10

10-16-2017, 11:59 PM	#20 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 68 Posts: 35,191 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684437	Best thing to do is to keep a note book of all the changes you make. And record what each change feels like. 2011 Nismo#91 and Hotrodz like this. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

10-17-2017, 12:17 AM	#21 (permalink)
MaysEffect Enthusiast Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: SoCal Age: 32 Posts: 383 Drives: Infiniti FX35 Rep Power: 36	Tire pressures are very much dependent on alignment and weight balance. If you have more weight in the rear and additional negative camber i would keep the pressures the same front and rear no greater than 39psi hot More camber and no additional weight - less pressure overall but less in the rear (this will induce a bit of understeer at first, drive accordingly) Also like Hotrodz said, its dependent on tires too. More so the tread depth, design and sidewall profile. Extremes or summer sports - higher cold pressures around 35-37psi. Lower profile tires need less air for the same level of rigidity. Stock or larger profile tires require a bit more. Also i personally don't recommend running low pressures under 30psi unless you know you will be putting a lot of force into them and have a stiff enough suspension to force pressure on to them like Rodz car. Hotrodz likes this.

11-06-2017, 03:23 PM	#23 (permalink)
ValidusVentus Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Washington State Posts: 400 Drives: #18 Z34 Rep Power: 23	My 2c: -Check to make sure you have at least .15 degrees toe in per wheel in the rear. If not, make that happen. -Try to ensure that you aren't overdriving the rear tires and getting them greasy(er) than the fronts. Lowering your rear pressure will help on grip and make them a little warmer but its still possible to overdrive them and still get them too hot. if you raise the pressure back there, as long as you aren't overdriving them they should stay a bit cooler, but it will lower their grip a bit and make it easier to overdrive them. -I don't recommend swapping back to xp8s all around since that pad is not nearly heat tolerant enough for our heavy cars front brakes if you use them near their abilities. Furthermore, a swap to xp8 in the front from xp10s would effectively alter your brake bias more towards the rear. I don't see that as being a good thing for stability under braking if you are already having issues. -Maybe try being slightly slower on your application and release of the brakes. All that being said I think all the slush in the rear stock suspension between the rubber bushings and fluid filled bushings contributes to this. Also as the suspension unloads in the rear and goes into droop I believe the suspension geometry starts to generate toe out, causing instability, well that and the fact that the wheels are pulling back pretty hard on all those flexible bushings while braking, adding more toe out. Which may be why having stiffer springs in front seems to mitigate this some. It doesn't change the amount of weight transfer but it does reduce the amount of suspension movement in droop in the rear. __________________ Mods: Dedicated caged track car, lots of things. \|\|\| Valkyrie Autosport \|\|\| Last edited by ValidusVentus; 11-06-2017 at 03:49 PM.

10-16-2017, 08:21 PM	#16 (permalink)
MaysEffect Enthusiast Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: SoCal Age: 32 Posts: 383 Drives: Infiniti FX35 Rep Power: 36	Have you been monitoring tire pressures.

11-30-2017, 06:04 PM	#24 (permalink)
flyguy0812 Base Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Texas Posts: 30 Drives: 2015 370z white auto Rep Power: 10	I did the install of a switch that turns off the yaw sensor. This mod (off mod) along with TCS off made a huge improvement in the handling and brake wear on the track.

12-24-2017, 12:17 PM	#25 (permalink)
NVSTR Base Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Houston Posts: 49 Drives: 2014 370z Nismo Rep Power: 9	Yeah. I have gotten a weird lateral "bucking" at higher speeds. I still felt in control, but it was a little squirrely. I also have XP10's & XP8's

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