D2 Coilovers

Rusty · 09-25-2017, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrodz

You crack me up, I guess all spring then are created equal and there no difference between Swifts or any other spring. I will agree that all springs are equal as far the rating of 10k or 8k or whatever, however I must be all wet in thinking that springs would respond differently based on the materials they are made of or the thickness of the spring or how tightly the sping was spun.

Oh and I have a very sensitive butt!

You do have a point. Springs may be rated the same. But due to differences in alloy, coil spacing, coil diameter, spring diameter, wire diameter. May rebound differently. They will take the same amount of weight to compress. But to rebound could be different.

Hotrodz · 09-25-2017, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

You do have a point. Springs may be rated the same. But due to differences in alloy, coil spacing, coil diameter, spring diameter, wire diameter. May rebound differently. They will take the same amount of weight to compress. But to rebound could be different.

My point exactly!

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MaysEffect · 09-26-2017, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrodz

You crack me up, I guess all spring then are created equal and there no difference between Swifts or any other spring. I will agree that all springs are equal as far the rating of 10k or 8k or whatever, however I must be all wet in thinking that springs would respond differently based on the materials they are made of or the thickness of the spring or how tightly the sping was spun.

Oh and I have a very sensitive butt!

Are you guessing or do you know forsure these factors are different? All of those factors come into play to create the spring rate. So more times than not the dimensions are extremely close for any given diameter and length per rate measured. In the case where materials are different, the force acting upon it should be linear in both rebound and compression, if not, this goes back to what i said about damaged. Noticing a difference between a 10kg x 5 inch eibach or swift would mean one or the other does not truly hold its rate in linear fashion. There have been no recent test that show swift springs falling short of its rates. i doubt the rates and lengths are actually the same if you are saying you've determined a noticeable difference with these absolute back to back test. In any case, why would you even make this change? Unless you actually damaged your springs or dampers.

Rusty · 09-26-2017, 02:15 AM

Good article on springs.

https://landrumspring.com/technical/...l-information/

asapZ · 09-26-2017, 02:20 AM

What about PBM Coilovers they tend to make them customs for what you wana us them for??

Hotrodz · 09-26-2017, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaysEffect

Are you guessing or do you know forsure these factors are different? All of those factors come into play to create the spring rate. So more times than not the dimensions are extremely close for any given diameter and length per rate measured. In the case where materials are different, the force acting upon it should be linear in both rebound and compression, if not, this goes back to what i said about damaged. Noticing a difference between a 10kg x 5 inch eibach or swift would mean one or the other does not truly hold its rate in linear fashion. There have been no recent test that show swift springs falling short of its rates. i doubt the rates and lengths are actually the same if you are saying you've determined a noticeable difference with these absolute back to back test. In any case, why would you even make this change? Unless you actually damaged your springs or dampers.

Mr. Mays, do believe the article Rusty provided is evidence enough for the statements I made. I find it curious that you are the one emphatically stated that my opinion was wrong and that my assumptions were a wild a$$ guess. You challenge me with your own loose facts and opinions by stringing a line bs that sounds reasonable but lacks depth and accuracy. Then you try to make your point by trying make me provide information that you don't have to back your own statements. My opinions are my own based on my knowledge, experience, observation, research and conversations with others and yes I am sometimes wrong and I glad for those that correct me in a respectful tone or not.

As I was once told it doesn't cost anything to be nice!

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B&W_Evader · 09-26-2017, 10:30 AM

Time to take a chill pill. Lets all get all juiced up about who's right on springs.

LOL

B&W_Evader · 09-26-2017, 10:40 AM

Good spring story I want to share... Had a 66 ElCamino that had been lowered by torching the springs and letting them sag. Oki lowering job. I did the oki thing to bring them back to stock. I heated them up and bent them back into shape. Then I quenched them to get the temper back in them. One of them tipped over on the driveway and broke in half. I was "Oh ****, WTF" and figured I should have probably annealed them instead of quenching. So.. in true oki fashion, I welded the spring back together using a coat hanger as welding rod and annealed it with the torch. I have no idea how long it lasted since I sold the car shortly thereafter.

MaysEffect · 09-26-2017, 03:25 PM

I was asking for clarification on the situation because you are the one making the claim about variations between companies claiming the same properties. There are too many variables in a suspension system that would render your analysis inaccurate. Certainly if the springs you claim are in actuality not the same in the first place.

There is a statement in the article suggest there are industry standards that allow estimated measurement values of 5% accuracy to the claimed rating. While this is true and the case between company and company, you'd still be hard pressed to notice a considerable difference here unless there were considerable design differences between the springs. Most linear springs from swift, hyperco and eibach use very similar design principles and dimensions, with materials and forming being one of the only open variable. Even still not different enough to change to overall behavior of the spring. If it's a linear spring we are talking about, it still needs to behave in such fashion. Now if you are talking about progressive springs, then of course they're will be considerable differences from the base spring ratings companies claim. There is absolutely nothing accurate about ratings for progressive springs, certainly when talking about dual rate springs. The differences can easily be above 200ib/in at 2inches of compression for instance.

With a 1000ib/in linear spring, a 5% variation is only 50ibs. In most cases 1000ibs is already greater than the corner load on most vehicles including the 370z and g37. So you'd need significant load transfer or bump aggravation to get those springs working. Add in damper force and tire compression, you're butt will need to be working at 200% to accurately measure what the spring is doing beyond supporting the weight of the vehicle.

This is also another reason why kg/mm is such a horrible measurement in any form. It allows a variable average of 55*ib/in both ways between ratings. Hyperco, Eibach and even swift don't even claim those exact levels of accuracy on there site in ib/in form. Hyperco make springs in 25ib/in increments as does eibach. So again this goes back to what i said that in reality the two springs you are claiming are not actually the same and can be different over 2kg or so. So is the swift spring actually softer? Sure, but that's by the virtue of it actually having a different rating all together. Not it's difference to compression and rebound behavior.

You and the article are right in saying the springs may not actually have the same rating, but this is not the same thing as saying; for one rating (if accurately measured), two springs behave different enough for you to tell pants to seat. Even in the article they used a scenario when they changed springs with slightly different ratings and couldn't tell the difference.

Quote:

For example, while testing at Charlotte, a car had a 375# tagged spring in the rear, the driver felt that the car was loose on corner entry and the Hoosier tire temperatures supported his feel. After stiffing the spring to a 400# tagged spring the driver did not feel any changes. The tire temperatures still supported his feel.

You saying you could tell the difference with two springs with the SAME rating and noticing a significant difference draws skepticism. Sorry you don't see that. The test goes on to say, the springs were actually tested within 2ib/in of eachother in favor of the lower rated spring when rated only 1/2kg/mm(25ib/in) difference.

I don't know how you are reading my tone, but i haven't said anything with attitude or contempt. I was simply questioning the validity of your claims. Making claims like that suggests someone is lying about there products, and in a thread where people come to get information like this, that can be damaging to the reputation of the company you speak about. Making that claim alone can significantly shift someone's buying choice when the validity of the claim can't even be taken with face value. This is my reasoning for questioning it. I was not at all trying to belittle you, just trying to get an accurate depiction of the situation, so others can draw the right conclusion before changing their opinion. (seriously wasn't trying to rhyme there

)

I've literally been making the same questions and discussions since I've been here. My very first post almost gave Spooler an aneurysm lol. So sorry if i got under your skin. It's not at all personal

Hotrodz · 09-26-2017, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaysEffect

I was asking for clarification on the situation because you are the one making the claim about variations between companies claiming the same properties. There are too many variables in a suspension system that would render your analysis inaccurate. Certainly if the springs you claim are in actuality not the same in the first place.

There is a statement in the article suggest there are industry standards that allow estimated measurement values of 5% accuracy to the claimed rating. While this is true and the case between company and company, you'd still be hard pressed to notice a considerable difference here unless there were considerable design differences between the springs. Most linear springs from swift, hyperco and eibach use very similar design principles and dimensions, with materials and forming being one of the only open variable. Even still not different enough to change to overall behavior of the spring. If it's a linear spring we are talking about, it still needs to behave in such fashion. Now if you are talking about progressive springs, then of course they're will be considerable differences from the base spring ratings companies claim. There is absolutely nothing accurate about ratings for progressive springs, certainly when talking about dual rate springs. The differences can easily be above 200ib/in at 2inches of compression for instance.

With a 1000ib/in linear spring, a 5% variation is only 50ibs. In most cases 1000ibs is already greater than the corner load on most vehicles including the 370z and g37. So you'd need significant load transfer or bump aggravation to get those springs working. Add in damper force and tire compression, you're butt will need to be working at 200% to accurately measure what the spring is doing beyond supporting the weight of the vehicle.

This is also another reason why kg/mm is such a horrible measurement in any form. It allows a variable average of 55*ib/in both ways between ratings. Hyperco, Eibach and even swift don't even claim those exact levels of accuracy on there site in ib/in form. Hyperco make springs in 25ib/in increments as does eibach. So again this goes back to what i said that in reality the two springs you are claiming are not actually the same and can be different over 2kg or so. So is the swift spring actually softer? Sure, but that's by the virtue of it actually having a different rating all together. Not it's difference to compression and rebound behavior.

You and the article are right in saying the springs may not actually have the same rating, but this is not the same thing as saying; for one rating (if accurately measured), two springs behave different enough for you to tell pants to seat. Even in the article they used a scenario when they changed springs with slightly different ratings and couldn't tell the difference.

You saying you could tell the difference with two springs with the SAME rating and noticing a significant difference draws skepticism. Sorry you don't see that. The test goes on to say, the springs were actually tested within 2ib/in of eachother in favor of the lower rated spring when rated only 1/2kg/mm(25ib/in) difference.

I don't know how you are reading my tone, but i haven't said anything with attitude or contempt. I was simply questioning the validity of your claims. Making claims like that suggests someone is lying about there products, and in a thread where people come to get information like this, that can be damaging to the reputation of the company you speak about. Making that claim alone can significantly shift someone's buying choice when the validity of the claim can't even be taken with face value. This is my reasoning for questioning it. I was not at all trying to belittle you, just trying to get an accurate depiction of the situation, so others can draw the right conclusion before changing their opinion. (seriously wasn't trying to rhyme there

)

I've literally been making the same questions and discussions since I've been here. My very first post almost gave Spooler an aneurysm lol. So sorry if i got under your skin. It's not at all personal

You protest too much! You don't know me and give yourself to much credit. I only have one feeling and you are not even close to hitting it!!!

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Rusty · 09-26-2017, 03:54 PM

Next time. Include the whole thing.

a car had a 375# tagged spring in the rear, the driver felt that the car was loose on corner entry and the Hoosier tire temperatures supported his feel. After stiffing the spring to a 400# tagged spring the driver did not feel any changes. The tire temperatures still supported his feel. After the supposed spring change, the team then began to change shocks, sway-bars, and pan-hard bar heights. At the end of the day, the springs where rated. After viewing the data sheets we found that the 375# tagged spring was actually a 387# and the 400# tagged spring was a 385#. So the actual change in spring rate was not an increase of 25# as was intended but a decrease of 2#. This is why the driver and the tire temps showed no change.

What it amounts to is. There was a spring that what tagged as a 375#. But was measured 385#. They changed to a 400# spring, but it was measured at 385# later. That why they felt no change.

I'm at the point of

You haven't been around long enough in life to see everything that we have.

MaysEffect · 09-26-2017, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

Next time. Include the whole thing.

What it amounts to is. There was a spring that what tagged as a 375#. But was measured 385#. They changed to a 400# spring, but it was measured at 385# later. That why they felt no change.

I'm at the point of

You haven't been around long enough in life to see everything that we have.

I literally stated both.

Quote:

The test goes on to say, the springs were actually tested within 2ib/in of eachother in favor of the lower rated spring when rated only 1/2kg/mm(25ib/in) difference.

In either case my point is still proven here. If two springs rates are about the same, you'd be hard to tell the difference. Regardless of its physical properties.

MaysEffect · 09-26-2017, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrodz

You protest too much! You don't know me and give yourself to much credit. I only have one feeling and you are not even close to hitting it!!!

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

Why are you yelling lol.

I'm not trying to hit anything. I'm trying to get you to validate your claims.

and whyyyyy did you have to repost that long *** post lol.

KamiSpeed · 09-26-2017, 04:44 PM

2011 Nismo#91 · 09-26-2017, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

Next time. Include the whole thing.

a car had a 375# tagged spring in the rear, the driver felt that the car was loose on corner entry and the Hoosier tire temperatures supported his feel. After stiffing the spring to a 400# tagged spring the driver did not feel any changes. The tire temperatures still supported his feel. After the supposed spring change, the team then began to change shocks, sway-bars, and pan-hard bar heights. At the end of the day, the springs where rated. After viewing the data sheets we found that the 375# tagged spring was actually a 387# and the 400# tagged spring was a 385#. So the actual change in spring rate was not an increase of 25# as was intended but a decrease of 2#. This is why the driver and the tire temps showed no change.

What it amounts to is. There was a spring that what tagged as a 375#. But was measured 385#. They changed to a 400# spring, but it was measured at 385# later. That why they felt no change.

I'm at the point of

You haven't been around long enough in life to see everything that we have.

This is why I am so apprehensive with just buying and installing an adjustable coilover. You really don't know what your getting because your consumer level stuff is mass produced with little QA/QC. "It's like having a blind man adjust the focus on your camera. What's the point."

"Let me make this as clear as I possibly can: THE ADJUSTERS ON YOUR SHOCKS ALMOST CERTAINLY DO NOT DO WHAT YOU THINK THEY DO. Unless you have something high-end, like a Penske, and you've taken the time to clock the adjuster window on the shock dyno, the knobs on your shocks cannot be trusted to work. Most shocks of the same model DO NOT match each other on the same adjuster setting, and each click DOES NOT make the same change in force. Most shocks make very large changes per click near the "full hard" setting and make very little to no change near the "full soft" setting." - Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Shocks

09-26-2017, 02:15 AM	#19 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 68 Posts: 35,222 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684438	Good article on springs. https://landrumspring.com/technical/...l-information/ Hotrodz and MaysEffect like this. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

09-26-2017, 10:30 AM	#22 (permalink)
B&W_Evader Track Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: CA Posts: 972 Drives: slower than before Rep Power: 387	Time to take a chill pill. Lets all get all juiced up about who's right on springs. LOL __________________ \|RIP\|6spd-sport\|OSG-LSD\|XP8\|RBF600\|Eibach Sways\|RE-71R\|FI-34Row\|Gen3-CAI\|Yaw P.S.\|

09-26-2017, 10:40 AM	#23 (permalink)
B&W_Evader Track Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: CA Posts: 972 Drives: slower than before Rep Power: 387	Good spring story I want to share... Had a 66 ElCamino that had been lowered by torching the springs and letting them sag. Oki lowering job. I did the oki thing to bring them back to stock. I heated them up and bent them back into shape. Then I quenched them to get the temper back in them. One of them tipped over on the driveway and broke in half. I was "Oh ****, WTF" and figured I should have probably annealed them instead of quenching. So.. in true oki fashion, I welded the spring back together using a coat hanger as welding rod and annealed it with the torch. I have no idea how long it lasted since I sold the car shortly thereafter. 2011 Nismo#91, Rusty, Hotrodz and 1 others like this. __________________ \|RIP\|6spd-sport\|OSG-LSD\|XP8\|RBF600\|Eibach Sways\|RE-71R\|FI-34Row\|Gen3-CAI\|Yaw P.S.\|

09-26-2017, 03:54 PM	#26 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 68 Posts: 35,222 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684438	Next time. Include the whole thing. a car had a 375# tagged spring in the rear, the driver felt that the car was loose on corner entry and the Hoosier tire temperatures supported his feel. After stiffing the spring to a 400# tagged spring the driver did not feel any changes. The tire temperatures still supported his feel. After the supposed spring change, the team then began to change shocks, sway-bars, and pan-hard bar heights. At the end of the day, the springs where rated. After viewing the data sheets we found that the 375# tagged spring was actually a 387# and the 400# tagged spring was a 385#. So the actual change in spring rate was not an increase of 25# as was intended but a decrease of 2#. This is why the driver and the tire temps showed no change. What it amounts to is. There was a spring that what tagged as a 375#. But was measured 385#. They changed to a 400# spring, but it was measured at 385# later. That why they felt no change. I'm at the point of You haven't been around long enough in life to see everything that we have. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

09-26-2017, 04:44 PM	#29 (permalink)
KamiSpeed A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 5,888 Drives: 09 370z Rep Power: 25	Rusty, Hotrodz and Stright_Drop like this. __________________ KAMISPEED \| SHOP 370Z PERFORMANCE PARTS & MODS \| SUPPORT@KAMISPEED.COM KAMI SPEED REVIEWS \| FINANCE YOUR PARTS WITH US \| MILITARY & FIRST RESPONDERS PRE-ORDER DEPOSIT PROGRAM \| HKS MASTER SELLER

09-26-2017, 02:20 AM	#20 (permalink)
asapZ Base Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Calirfornia Posts: 36 Drives: 2012 Nissan 370Z Rep Power: 8	What about PBM Coilovers they tend to make them customs for what you wana us them for??

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