BBK Comparison thread: Brembo vs. StopTech vs. AP Racing

[Gary_C]

XAN,

Maybe a coincidence, but a lot of these Chinese knockoff companies do things like that to intentionally to confuse the consumer. They may not start the rumor that "Alliance" is an American made brake company, but they know that someone will spread it when they accidentally end up on the wrong site during a GOOGLE search.

Similar situation here...
DaTruth: The Chinese Are Bad For Your Health
LOL

My big gripe is that all of these new brake kit "suppliers" try to market their products head to head with the real manufacturers like Brembo, AP, PFC, Alcon, etc... (stated "SUPPLIERS", because the majority of them do not manufacturer their own products) The consumer who may not have enough cash to buy a Brembo or AP kit right this second falls for the marketing,...thinks he "saved" a bit of money,... and then justifies his purchase in the first place by making his own claims about how "it's just as good". For many people, it may actually be "good enough" for themselves, but I really get frustrated by the propaganda and false claims that may influence by someone who really doesn't know there are major differences.

The reason why people like Chris and myself have soo much pride for the brands we represent is because we know exactly what goes into the products that we offer. Whether everyone acknowledges it or appreciates it means very little to me, as long as we are able to get the truth out there. The guy who may not have been able to afford the real deal the first time around, can at least learn that there is a difference, wait a little longer to make his purchase, and get a product that may not be "cheaper" but is most definitely the better VALUE when you get down to the "nuts and bolts" of it. (almost literally )

No offense to Alliance or any other brand buying parts from over seas and slapping their name on it, but if you market your product for what it is...a low cost option for a segment of the market that can't afford better, or doesn't feel they need better...you will be a much better company for it in the long run. Over promising and under delivering will be your down fall.

[bullitt5897]

Guys, I will let Mike answer all question in regards to Alliance. However, In response to the quality of Alliance's BBK. I will have to say after holding them in my hands and installing them myself. I feel that these brakes a of very high quality! As for Performance they are performing leaps and bounds over the Stock Sport brakes which is what I was looking for. I have yet to thoroughly test them at the track as they were just installed this past weekend. I will be running a few tests when the weather clears up and after my car gets back from Forged Performance after the TT install.

I will say this... The brakes are more than capable of initiating the power assist (ice mode) *i think thats what its called* at any moment and with ALOT less effort than the sport brakes. I know the brakes have the stopping power to get the job done and after I get done with testing I will post up figures for you guys. I feel these Brakes will do an amazing job and I am shocked at the performance I am receiving for such an affordable price!

If your opposed to saving money thats fine. However, I bought mine based on reviews and from talking to people who actually owned and ran the kit on the track. Check My350z for some of the reviews they have on this kit. I have not heard of one issue or bad thing said about these brakes nor can I find any faults so far. Trust me if there is something I find wrong with the kit I will have it in my extensive review.

Until then I will hold my final judgments until I have fully tested the brakes with the street compound pads and then with the race compound pads.

[Mike@Blackline]

just got back from 5 hours on the road, 2AM and im passing out, so ill answer any questions tomorrow morning, but I'll answer the most recent one. Alliance's legal business name is Alliance Automotive Products. AAP (obviously Alliance for short as most people say) is NOT a brand of Blackline Motorsports. Separate companies, BLMS is the exclusive sole vendor for Alliance until the summer (Blackline is promoting Alliance and help them get off the ground into the market, and in return retain the exclusive sale rights) around June, at which point Alliance will be sold by multiple vendors who meet their eligibility and application process.
Will get to the other questions tomorrow, but maybe I'll start a thread about Alliance after Mike gets some pics and a light review, because we are getting off topic from the point of this thread. Night guys.

[Mike@Blackline]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

XAN,

Maybe a coincidence, but a lot of these Chinese knockoff companies do things like that to intentionally to confuse the consumer. They may not start the rumor that "Alliance" is an American made brake company, but they know that someone will spread it when they accidentally end up on the wrong site during a GOOGLE search.

I'm sure the American-based company is trying to 'accidentally' have their brand name confused with a OE parts supplier that no one has ever heard of that makes brakes for Dodge trucks. Hopefully they can nab a few sales when a Dodge Ram owner searches for $200 Daimler brake parts, and accidentally buy an Alliance Nissan Z BBK

Originally Posted by Gary_C

The reason why people like Chris and myself have soo much pride for the brands we represent is because we know exactly what goes into the products that we offer. Whether everyone acknowledges it or appreciates it means very little to me, as long as we are able to get the truth out there.

I myself have already expressed my respect for such brake brands earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted by battlewagon

...and i know what AP is to the brake world, probably the best brakes on the planet given their history, though ive never used them or experienced them. i know when respect is due, and AP gets mine.

Ahh now I'm going to bed and will answer questions when I'm up. Going to bed for real this time!

[Josh@STILLEN]

Originally Posted by battlewagon

just got back from 5 hours on the road, 2AM and im passing out, so ill answer any questions tomorrow morning, but I'll answer the most recent one. Alliance's legal business name is Alliance Automotive Products. AAP (obviously Alliance for short as most people say) is NOT a brand of Blackline Motorsports. Separate companies, BLMS is the exclusive sole vendor for Alliance until the summer (Blackline is promoting Alliance and help them get off the ground into the market, and in return retain the exclusive sale rights) around June, at which point Alliance will be sold by multiple vendors who meet their eligibility and application process.
Will get to the other questions tomorrow, but maybe I'll start a thread about Alliance after Mike gets some pics and a light review, because we are getting off topic from the point of this thread. Night guys.

Sounds good.. would love to hear some backstory on Alliance..

Question still remains though.. I'm guessing you're a vendor selling these correct? And we can probably assume that bullitt5897 has a sponsorship deal with his TT car?

Neither are negative things, but important for everyone to be on the same page as they're processing information..

[Mike@Blackline]

Originally Posted by Josh@STILLEN

Sounds good.. would love to hear some backstory on Alliance..

Question still remains though.. I'm guessing you're a vendor selling these correct? And we can probably assume that bullitt5897 has a sponsorship deal with his TT car?

Neither are negative things, but important for everyone to be on the same page as they're processing information..

Made it to bed but made the mistake of bringing my laptop.
Yes we are working out our sponsorship plan (Blackline Motorsports) with this site, just havent finished deciding if we are doing a basic package or banner ads and all that nonsense. And to answer a question I saw earlier, I am Mike@Blackline on my350z, and Mike@Blackline on ourvq.com (our vendor account goes active tomorrow).

Bullitt5897 is just our first customer to order the 370Z kit. On the same initial order, there are two G37 coupes. They waited a while for the kits to be developed after three purchases were confirmed, and received a few bucks off for their patience through development, and for the pictures they agreed to send us, and what we can all assume will be some initial exposure through creating threads (though they were not required to do that). He is under no agreement, pressure, or obligation to promote the kits at all. All I asked of him personally when I drove down met up with him to personally drop the kits off was to take a few pics of the kit, and to write a review on here, and emphasized clearly and boldly to write his unbiased, honest, and true opinion on the brakes. I couldn't emphasize enough that I wanted a true review on these. Whether people believe what I'm saying here or just thinking that I'm trying to cover up bullitt5897 and our's secret under the table payments for positive reviews, just know from my mouth on my word there is no such deal.

[bullitt5897]

Mike is right on that. To be honest Mike has even told me that if these brakes dont "hold water" so to speak about their performance they would work with me on getting me something that will. Mike has great customer service and drove down last minute to personally give me these brakes! He doesnt even live in the same state as me!!! Like I said I will give an honest review of this kit. And from what I have seen while driving the car is that these brakes deliver! Its sunny and snowing today so I might be able to wash the car and take some pics.

Josh, I wish I would have gotten a sponsorship deal that would have been SWEET!!!

Stay tuned guys... Testing data and pics coming soon.

[Gary_C]

I'm not trying to say anything bad about the Alliance products specifically, but simply offering things for people to think about before they make their decision. I will say that you can't "hold" or "feel" quality. The reason there are soo many fly by night braking companies sprouting up all over the place is because this is a product that can very easily "look the part"...and they prey on the consumer that really will not be able to tell the difference.

You can't "feel" metallurgy. You can't "see" structural integrity in terms of stiffness and strength with the naked eye. It's not that difficult to improve performance over an OEM system by throwing more mass into a disc, and supplying a caliper with opposed pistons and a more aggressive pad. For many people this may be the first aftermarket big brake kit they have ever purchased, and they have nothing to compare it to except for OEM production brakes. (one of you even said you have no experience with other aftermarket brands)

With such a new company how can you speak in terms of longevity of the parts which should be one of the most important factors for the consumer? I know for a fact that Brembo discs, because of their superior metallurgy (only possible due to their experience in professional racing, and their capability as the largest high performance brake manufacturer in the world) last twice as long as even some of the other well know brake companies. I know for a fact that you can fake caliper quality, which is initially apparent in modulation and pedal feel (which I'm sure Chris will agree, the more experienced companies like Brembo and AP are best at creating), and becomes more apparent over time when you need to rebuild calipers and replace pistons, seals, dust boots, etc...

And Bullit, it's not about "being opposed to saving money",... it's about educating yourself on why other brands may cost more initially, and making the decision for yourself based on whether these products will be a better value over time vs. a "cheaper" purchase today. I can't even count how many people have come to me to buy Brembo, AFTER they have had an unpleasant experience with another brand. Or how many people who have had a chance to drive a properly tuned Brembo system, have realized that their system is really not as good as they thought it was. Sinnce it's very difficult to be able to "test drive" different brake systems befre you make a purchase, a lot of times we have to explain our features and benefits in words. The problem here is that anyone can win a "verbal weight lifting contest" (BTW, I can bench press 640lbs.). The real proof is when you have the ability, experience, feedback, and reviews of real people, with real time invested, into the process to back it up.

I've only taken the time to respond in this thread because the initial topic was "BBK Comparison thread: Brembo vs. StopTech vs. AP Racing"...not "let's talk about Alliance in the thread where the 3 more prominent brands are discussed and see if we can capture some attention".

Originally Posted by bullitt5897

Guys, I will let Mike answer all question in regards to Alliance. However, In response to the quality of Alliance's BBK. I will have to say after holding them in my hands and installing them myself. I feel that these brakes a of very high quality! As for Performance they are performing leaps and bounds over the Stock Sport brakes which is what I was looking for. I have yet to thoroughly test them at the track as they were just installed this past weekend. I will be running a few tests when the weather clears up and after my car gets back from Forged Performance after the TT install.

I will say this... The brakes are more than capable of initiating the power assist (ice mode) *i think thats what its called* at any moment and with ALOT less effort than the sport brakes. I know the brakes have the stopping power to get the job done and after I get done with testing I will post up figures for you guys. I feel these Brakes will do an amazing job and I am shocked at the performance I am receiving for such an affordable price!

If your opposed to saving money thats fine. However, I bought mine based on reviews and from talking to people who actually owned and ran the kit on the track. Check My350z for some of the reviews they have on this kit. I have not heard of one issue or bad thing said about these brakes nor can I find any faults so far. Trust me if there is something I find wrong with the kit I will have it in my extensive review.

Until then I will hold my final judgments until I have fully tested the brakes with the street compound pads and then with the race compound pads.

[bullitt5897]

Thanks for the reply Gary! I agree with you about the performance and performance quality from any kit cannot be felt in ones hands. I was refering to the visual design and the look and feel of materials used. I look forward to testing this system and getting actual numbers for u guys. I have driven cars with stoptechs, rotoras, and brembo brakes and I think these brakes have good merit to them. Like I said before I will let the numbers speak for themselves and hol my final judgement until testing is done.

Being a business owner I understand why brembo, ap racing, endless and many others charge an arm and a leg for their products. Part is due to r&d costs while a good portion is because they have an established reputation and feel that the market can bare the weight of that pricing. Why should brakes from japan cost $15k a set while brembos and others cost half that? It's all about what portion of the market u wish to capture. Alliance has marketed themselves as a less expensive alternative. That doesn't mean that they lack the performance as other brands. I feel that Alliance can compete in this arena and after my testing we will see how they fair.

[Mike@Blackline]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

I've only taken the time to respond in this thread because the initial topic was "BBK Comparison thread: Brembo vs. StopTech vs. AP Racing"...not "let's talk about Alliance in the thread where the 3 more prominent brands are discussed and see if we can capture some attention".

no one asked for attention. a random user mentioned he was looking at the Alliance kit, and another user posted the Alliance kit weight, and then an uninformed and unfair statement was made. it was simpily defended, and then all of this happened. its not just (even if i was an uninvolved party looking at this thread, my opinion would be the same) for someone to speak negatively of a product without knowing anything about it, even though their questions and concerns may be valid, because for the hundreds of eyes scanning this thread, if they see no rebuttal, then they'll assume the uninformed statements are true. agree or disagree?

the same day we finalize our vendor status here, ill make a thread about Alliance an everyone can ask their questions and ill address the ones in here so that we dont pull this thread further off-topic
(edited for spelling)

[JB-370z]

Dam Gary_C, I think that your insinuations are hurting his new reputation, right off the back. When people read this they will see your comments which may sway or alter the initial thoughts of this brake kit. Don't you think you should ask a question before assuming potentially false information??? I think everyone deserves that chance. I’m sure most of what you said is true in the bbk realm, but there is a better way to go about addressing this as a whole. The way you choose to direct your comments are very Nazi like and almost brain washing. However this is a public message board and everyone is to express their personal thoughts...This is mine.

[daleks]

So what are the thoughts on the "vs. StopTech" portion of the original question? The thread has primarily focused on Brembo vs. AP, and general concerns about BBK's overall. I'm looking at a StopTech BBK.

[AP - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by daleks

So what are the thoughts on the "vs. StopTech" portion of the original question? The thread has primarily focused on Brembo vs. AP, and general concerns about BBK's overall. I'm looking at a StopTech BBK.

Since S/T is in a different category than AP or Brembo, it might be better to start a separate thread? It does confuse things to label so many brake systems into one category.

Chris

[daleks]

Originally Posted by AP - Chris_B

Since S/T is in a different category than AP or Brembo, it might be better to start a separate thread? It does confuse things to label so many brake systems into one category.

Chris

Different category how? That's kind of my question.

[AP - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by daleks

Different category how? That's kind of my question.

AP and Brembo (both owned by the Brembo group, but operated very independently) are at the pinnacle of global motorsports and braking worldwide. Between the two, they practically own F1 (AP has over 651 wins!) and NASCAR (87% of the field currently run AP), the two most demanding applications in the world for brakes. OK, you could also say the 24 Heures du Mans is amazingly brutal on brakes, but they own that, too!

They are both chosen as OE equipment on virtually all supercars on planet Earth from Bugatti Veryon (AP) to Gumpert Apollo (AP) to Pagani Zonda R (AP & Brembo), including all offerings from McLaren (AP), Porsche (Brembo), Ferrari (road - Brembo, race - AP & Brembo), Lamborghini (Brembo), Lotus (AP) and many, many more. There are two other companies that command respect at the most demanding levels of racing and extreme road vehicles, where the real lessons are learned. S/T, being a much younger company, is not one of those yet. Virtually all motorsports professionals will acknowledge this fact.

I'm not saying their product is no good, but no one can honestly say they are in the same category at this point in time -- never mind the even cheaper knock-off stuff coming from China/Taiwan/India. Of course, much of S/T's equipment originates in the Far East as well. I will say they have done a remarkable job with their marketing program for the time they have been in the industry.

For some, the price point is a determining factor (which is not much lower these days!) and that is fine for them. For those demanding the very best -- just like with everything else -- the choices narrow significantly.

Chris