Overpriced suspension parts??
 

Just wondering what other 370Z owners think about the Chris Forsberg/ Voodoo13 steering angle kit-
http://voodoo13usa.com/wp-content/up.../AKNS-0400.jpg
$4370.- on sale... :ugh2:

This steering angle kit for the 350Z has most of the same elements as the CFR/Voodoo kit. But the retail on this one is only $800- http://www.partsshopmax.com/e107_fil...8_dsc04334.jpg
So yeah, I'm hoping to get a discussion going. Currently the CFR/ Voodoo kit is the only steering angle kit offered for the 370Z/ G37.

The money is in the upright ...... not cheap to spend that much time in CNC and Mill just turning a big hunk of ali into ali-chips ...

Maybe... but then why can Voodoo13 sell this similar CNC part @ only $200- retail for the pair??
http://voodoo13usa.com/wp-content/up..._1-600x400.jpg

I just don't see the why the CFR kit is so overpriced there's only two parts that are CNC machined for this application only. Based on their own pricing that means the spindles would be around $3000+ alone. :shakes head:

Or maybe they should offer up this kit WITHOUT spindles :icon17:

Not similar.

Also, think of the number they'll sell for the 370Z, mayyyybe 1 set, so they need to make up for the lack of quantity made.


Lastly, I believe they do and you can buy the pieces separately

That CNC part @ $200- is the front tension rods from another platform- Why don't you think the two CNC pieces are similar??
The application is for the JDM S-15 Silvia or Skyline R34 RWD only. So it's not like they will be in high volume & effect pricing.

But I'm glad to have this discussion going! I'm really hoping somebody can point out something other than the fact that the CFR kit has Chris Forsberg's name stamped on it- so it's marked up just from his name... because the other pieces from Voodoo13 are quite reasonable actually-

So this leads me to believe the kit is indeed overpriced- I think you're right on though at $4,370 I see them really only selling a few kits, however if they would sell the kit around their regular pricing of their other retail parts, then this kit would be priced around $2000. I think at that price there would be a number of buyers. However that's just my opinion-

To my knowledge the CFR kit is not offered by any vendors ala carte. If you know otherwise please correct me or steer me to a link/ vendor. :tiphat:

That's not surprising, LG Motorsports has billet aluminum "drop spindles" for Corvette C6 and the set is priced at thousands of dollars. In a spindle or a hub carrier made of a massive billet, most of the aluminum is "wasted"; plus the amortization is in a very low production number, driving the cost even higher.

Thanks for adding that info. :tiphat:
The C6 Corvette drop spindles would have been totally off my radar. It looks like a pair of these LG C6 spindles on their own run $1,420- much more reasonable than our $3,000+ spindles.
http://www.lmperformance.com/images/...ragspindle.jpg

I'm personally more familiar with additive manufacturing from my studies, but I do know that with subtractive manufacturing, like milling, the main cost huddle is still the 3D modeling and not so much the dimensions of the piece (within reason). The difference in pricing from these manufactures is further leading me to the conclusion the CFR kit is priced too high. Also I'd like to point out that any "wasted" aluminum milled away from the process does get collected and recycled. But as it's a common practice to reduce costs and you put it in quotes I'm sure you knew this already. It may benefit somebody though.

Your argument for the low production effecting costs is valid, I'm just curious as too why other CNC projects from Voodoo13 I assume to be low production, like the JDM S-15/ R34 RWD front tension rods I mentioned above, are not also sky high in price?

last week it was tommy kaira knobs, this week suspension bits :shakes head:

:iagree:

Those Fujimura parts man..... So pricey!

When I was building my Camaro I had a friend that did CAD design, there was a few custom parts we designed and had to get a machine shop involved to do the milling after we settled on something. One of the parts were radiator/fender supports. The going rate at that time was about $120 for a set of billet from 2 of the main stream and were rather plain looking, threw him a case of beer for the design and $20 for the machine work... In most of cases your paying for the machine and the knowledge to set it up.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/P1010257.jpg

Any JDM parts have inherit price mark ups lol I know that better than most. I've bought and sold my fair share ;)

But this kit was designed and made by Voodoo13 (Arizona) as a main sponsor for Chris Forsberg and his 370z formula D car. The R&D costs shouldn't really be passed on to the general public because that's part of the sponsorship.

I've meet Chris in person the first time was almost 10 years ago at a local drift event. He's very approachable and really cares about his sport and the promotion of it. I've even found him chatting and giving advice on internet drift forums. He's a very down to earth and humble guy.

Voodoo13 makes some high quality parts and other than this kit are at reasonable pricing. So why is it that when these two positive forces team up it's a bad thing??

I think I might be the only person to weigh in here yet that would actually purchase and use this steering angle kit, and in my opinion based on everything I've seen and compared so far it's waaaaaaaaaaaay over priced. Maybe I'll just fly out to all of Chris's drift events and collect his slightly used bits off the track haha I think that might be more cost effective :icon17:

That's awesome!! But I don't know who was the better friend in the story, him for doing you a solid and furthering your project or was it you for paying mostly in beer?! :yum:

That cost shouldn't be passed on to the customer?

How would the company make its money back though? All R&D and promotions are made up in the company's margin. And I'm sure the margin on these parts is astronomical, for good reason though

What I'm saying is this: If you make a one-of kit in sponsorship of a competition car and then decide to sell it to the general population in low quantities- the full costs of the project shouldn't be placed on the public buyers. Part of that sponsorship should include eating some of the sunk costs that go into R&D. Otherwise it's more like the public who actually are paying the inflated cost of this kit end up being the real sponsors. Think about it-

It's a simple fact that there is next to no demand for these parts. Why should a company sell it if there is no money in it for them?

It's the exact same outcome at the end. Trust me, I'm a cost analyst for a pharmaceutical company, lol

Oh? Then you may enjoy reading the following passage, especially the second example ;)

"A common example of a sunk cost for a business is the promotion of a brand name. This type of marketing incurs costs that cannot normally be recovered. It is not typically possible to later "demote" one's brand names in exchange for cash. A second example is R&D costs. Once spent, such costs are sunk and should have no effect on future pricing decisions. So a pharmaceutical company’s attempt to justify high prices because of the need to recoup R&D expenses is fallacious. The company will charge market prices whether R&D had cost one dollar or one million dollars.[8] However, R&D costs, and the ability to recoup those costs, are a factor in deciding whether to spend the money on R&D." -Klein and Bauman (2010) The Cartoon Introduction to Economics Volume One: Microeconomics 24-26.

This was my point from earier this afternoon I briefly made during my lunch. Brand promotion i.e. a car sponsorship and R&D costs are sunk costs! Despite what your gut may tell you it's a common fallacy for managers to attempt to reclaim these costs by passing them on to the consumer.

R&D is seen as an investment in the firm, or a means to obtain competitive advantage. It's not something to pass on as a tax or to be recouped by higher consumer costs. A perfect example in the automotive world is the Lexus LFA, R&D costs on that project were truly "astonomical" yet the company sold each and every model at a LOSS- The company still benefited from having developed new technologies and manufacturing processes in-house.

Same as what I pointed out to DE.50-

The R&D is already done and paid for, as in a sunk. How does the company benefit for selling zero kits at a price of $4370??

Answer- they don't. It's actually in the company's best interest to ignore those costs from the sponsorship and the R&D. Figure out the costs to run the machines + labor+ overhead ect. and actually price the kit accordingly or relative to the market/demand. Then the company will actually turn a profit.

If you are so incensed at the cost of these parts, then how about you do your own R&D and make them from scratch yourself.

If you are unwilling to do this, then don't demand that others do exactly the thing that you personally are not prepared to do.

Your choices are simple ... pay the asking price because you want the parts, OR do the R&D yourself and seek to recover your R&D costs over what you believe to be a reasonable volume. There is clearly an element of investment risk here.

Just because you "believe" you should not have to pay the ask does not make your view any more "right" than Voodoo when they set the price. If you don;t like the price, the consequence is you don't purchase and you can seek an alternative solution.

Nice false dilemma you set up there :ugh2:

Just because I don't choose one alternative does not make the other one correct- In fact there are other solutions I or somebody else in my position could take. One of them if you haven't discovered it yet is to make a topic for discussion like I've done and bring attention to the issue. As far as R&D costs go... please read the rest of this thread. It's not my personal belief that they are a sunk cost that shouldn't be passed on to consumers. R&D by definition is a sunk cost! There's no debate- it's not a theory I'm working on. It's an established fact.

As for those that have given this some thought, and shared their personal CNC experiences, offered up other parts for cost comparison, or simply kept an open mind and thought critically, I truly thank you! :tiphat:

I'm aware that discussions on the internet are not always held in the realm of logic, and often boil down to just popular opinions or group thinking. Everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless. What I'm asking here if for a real discussion. If you feel a certain way that's great but how about backing it up with something else yeah? Use some citations, a link, an alternative. I'm not one to just go with the flow because it's popular, if I was I wouldn't be setting up my 370Z to drift with haha!

Brother, you want the price to be cheaper, call them and state your claim... See what they say.

Or if you think there's a market at a lower price, ask them for 10 sets at $1500, or something you feel like is reasonable. Then you can pass that risk on to the other 9 guys. Hell, I'll buy a set if you get it cheap enough.

I understand exactly these circumstances ............ and I run my own business and I have been in competitive motorsport for nearly 50 years and have made and offered for sale various components over the journey. I have put my money right where my mouth is.

From an accounting viewpoint, R&D as a sunk cost is not an accurate statement as it is "sunk" only if epxensed to Profit and Loss. It can (in Australia at least, subject to Accounting Board standards) also be capitalised and then the CAPEX amount amortised against subsequent unit production.

In either case, someone has still outlaid the hard-$'s (the investment).

You seem to be advancing the case that the cost has to be expensed (sunk) and therefore the price should only reflect the marginal cost of unit production plus margin and I respectfully disagree. The choice - in the case of capitalised R&D is the unit volume over which amortisation occurs.

Asserting that the only R&D treatment is to expense it is analogous to having your cake and eating it too.

I invite you to consider the point from the investors perspective.

If the R&D has been expensed, then the business is down $xK and it is legitimately entitled to set a price that recovers its cost over projected production volumes, failing which the business runs at a loss and that has only one end point. If a business gets its costing wrong, the consumer benefits on price and the manufacturer goes bust so the consumer bears the risk of no follow-on service or warranty.

If the R&D cost has been capitalized and carried as an asset on the balance sheet, and subject to amortization over likely sales volumes, then the business is similarly entitled to set a price that reflects the unit cost of production over likely volume plus unit amortization.

The R&D money has been spent .... and in either case, revenue needs to cover it.

Revenue is unit sales value times number of sales ..... and both require a conscious decisions to establish. In one case, pricing needs to take account of the product line starting with a negative cost base (includes sunk cost) to which is added unit cost of production for projected sales and in the other case, the pricing inputs are marginal cost of unit production plus amortisation of capitalized R&D over projected production volumes.

Sunk cost is still a cost and cannot be ignored which seems to be the argument you are advancing.

All I can see is that you are disagreeing with VooDoo's pricing because you view it as "excessively expensive".

I'm very happy for you be say it is too expensive, in which case the consequence is don't pay the price and do something else (like purchase another product or invest in your own R&D and prototype(s)) but to drive an argument that it should be cheaper because sunk cost should be ignored for pricing purposes is wrong.

Good suggestion, a group buy might be a real world solution for everyone. At what price do you think you would be a buyer at personally? I won't hold you to it or anything unless we get closer and make an official list and all. Just want to get a ballpark on what you or others think is reasonable. Then I'll probably follow up with a pole and then make a case to them using that and the other info. gathered.

I was also thinking of asking Voodoo13 if they would consider making a redesign, like a street version. Maybe there's a way they can incorporate our stock spindles like others have done with the 350Z in the past. As most of the price in the CFR kit appears to be in the spindle. What are you thoughts? Or any other suggestions?

You should also consider the cost/benefit to the consumer. At what price point do they think they can sell it to their average consumer? Without competition, the average person (average in regards to needing/wanting an angle kit) would be at the mercy of whatever price voodoo wants.

What's the real alternative? The average person to go sink their own money into development of their own kit. How much is that going to cost? Is it more or less than voodoo's kit and what is the risk involved? At that point your average person might realize that it's easier, more reliable, and cheaper to simply go with the $4000 cost that voodoo is suggesting is fair. Don't like it? Change platforms. Get a corvette, maybe.

You're the "Econ expert" you give me the price where the company will be happy selling them and they won't worry about their "sunk" cost.

And I don't think the price is turning people off. The uselessness does, lol


But hey, call up Voodoo, see what pricing you can get when you give them your logic. See what price they give you for 1, then see what pricing they give you for 5, I doubt there's more than 5 guys that want the whole kit.

If you think the price of these parts are high. You should see the prices for some industrial/commercial parts. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Long ago, I was involved with making nickel/graphite seals. One 6" diameter, 1/4" wide seal for a compressor sold for $12,000. You needed 6 of that size, and 6 more of that are 14" ($19,000 ea.) in diameter and one for the balance piston ($26,000 ea.) for a rebuild.

When buying parts from GE. We have a saying. "You might find better, but you won't pay more." :mad:

In my eyes, the prices for the VooDoo13 parts are in line for the volume that they sell of them. ;)

I like and respect your argument much better with this presentation. I also applaud you for being a small business owner and being involved in motorsports for so long. Two things I really like to support!

Although I'm not familiar with the business practices in Australia or accounting laws. I can tell you that I'm fresh from studying my MBA overseas with Bradford University (UK) and spent time taking courses in Singapore as well. So I do have some expose to the other former colonies' business practices ; ) R&D funds typically come from profits or is equity financed. Imagine the early 90's when Honda Japan started pumping their money and investing in their new robotics division, and instead of scaling back their profits and dividends paid they instead simple tired to pass this new R&D "expense" off on their customers- Do you think Honda would still be in business today if they tried to sell its Accords and Civic for twice as much during the 90's??

R&D is an investment in the future of the company- not a project cost assigned to a batch to be paid for by a customer. The company benefits from R&D and thus it weighs the upfront costs and makes a decision to proceed and then it must later live with it, good or bad. That management decision has no bearing on the price of the products the company is selling. Although I will share with you many managers tried to argue otherwise during my studies, as it's a common misconception but it was covered in multiple areas among them I remember strategic management and corporate accounting. But again take the LFA, or Honda examples I've just cited, both are well documented cases.

Hahaha absolutely love the saying you and co. have come up with! My father is retired from Hughes Aircraft/ Raythoen I've heard similar tales from him over my lifetime.

I also see eye to eye with you on the corresponding Voodoo13 pricing :tiphat:

Valid point-
I'm aware they have the market corned for this platform/ application. I'd like to believe they are misguided with trying to cover R&D rather than just malicious price gouging. But, you may be right : /

You got it boss :tup: I'll be giving them a call on my next day off and will take notes and report the findings. I agree as well that 5 sets would be more realistic.

The large piece and elbow piece are machined from a very large block of aluminum. That alone contributes to the cost, plus there are a lot of machining hours involved since you're cutting away so much. It's not just that it's cnc. I don't think the CAD work is a heavy contributor here. Low demand is probably the biggest reason it's so expensive.


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Yep- this has been discussed already a few times actually. Please refer to the following pictures in reference to the relative cost/price of the elbow piece you describe. As you can see from the comparison the parts are very similar between the S-15 Silvia application and the 370Z. The S-15 pair sells at $207- Both application are made in house by Voodoo13 in Arizona using the same CNC and design process. These parts can and do sell at very reasonable pricing without compromising on quality design or only possible through high volume.

My argument is that the the large piece you refer to, or the spindles, don't need to be priced in excess of $3,000 for this kit. See also the cost of similarly made spindles, linked on the first page for cost comparison that are retailed for less than half.

The elbow parts are not equal. One can be cut out of ~2x4" stock, and the other out of ~2x8" (or larger).


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Plus the length might be over 1 ft which would require a 2 or 3 ft block. Although the other components could reuse the extra stock which should offset some of the cost.


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The Corvette one isn't even close to the size of the 370Z one, and I bet there's at least twice as many Corvettes out there.

Based on what?? Just because you make a statement doesn't mean it's true. Look at Voodoo's pic below, showing the halfway point in their process. I don't think their tension rods are made from 2x4" stock or even 2x8" do you? But yes they still retail at $207- regardless of the car model.

Guys/gals I'm all for hearing out opposing views, but please please please take a little time to do some quick research to give your opinion some weight. Otherwise it's just a baseless opinion, a shot in the dark really.

^and you're sooooooo pissed off in the pricing without a solution...

Overpriced suspension parts??
 

I don't have a ruler next to these parts hence the approximate symbol "~". My point was that the aluminum stock used is much larger on the expensive part. On the order of double the width, therefore more expensive just from the raw material.


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:confused:
I'm in no way pissed off- I do find baseless arguments quite annoying though. I make comparisons with pics and links and others just don't bother to read the thread or state no- it's not similar at all... Really, how so??

What I'm really puzzled by is the negativity with some posters here just wanting to say no to everything based on nothing but gut feelings. I'm seriously looking at purchasing this kit or a similar one, if I can source it. But my main obstacle is that the pricing is just over the top, and I've cited as best I can so far why I believe so.

If you're expecting to troll me into some kind of internet rage meltdown, I can assure you it's a waste of both our time. I'm here for a discussion, if I'm wrong in the end I'm OK with that. I've been looking at this kit for months now, and I've given the cost/pricing a lot of thought. From what I've seen so far I feel at this moment the price is inflated to cover either a sponsorship/ endorsement/ R&D or some combination and it shouldn't be that way-