Akebonos not up to heavy track use!

WShade · 11-01-2009, 10:43 AM

Abu Dhabi Grand Prix: Lewis Hamilton retires with car failure in final race of season

Quote:

"I was struggling to stop the car," Hamilton said. "The right rear brake wasn't working and it was too dangerous to continue."

Sorry but I could not resist

Ok back on topic.

ZPirate · 11-01-2009, 11:17 AM

Interesting thread. Somehow I missed it earlier. I am surprised that the Akebonos aren't holding up as good as the Brembos on the 350Z did under heavy use. On paper they seem like good brakes. I am also surprised to hear that the pad surface is smaller than the 350Z Brembos.

The brakes on my 03 350Z Touring were not very good. Maybe I should have opted for the Track model. That's why I replaced them with StopTechs. Love the StopTechs.

travisjb · 11-01-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

When you were "getting into the ABS" this was more than likely the malfunction we are talking about. You feel the ABS kick in, lose about 50% braking force for a second and then it decides to grip again. The hotter it gets the longer it cuts out for. The sad part is that it doesn't take particularly high rotor temperatures to get into this state. I don't think the calipers are solely to blame for the problem however people that have replaced their calipers have seen the problem go away.

+1... issues was completely eliminated once I installed my AP Racing BBK... more posted here AP Racing Big Brake Kit Installed!

Quote:

Originally Posted by import111

Tracked the car today. Brakes where fine. No ABS issues at all.

You were at FIR East if I recall correctly... really not too hard on the brakes, just the one big braking zone and plenty of time to cool down after that

Mike · 11-01-2009, 02:02 PM

Yep, it all depends on the circuit. No probe since I upgraded to the front brembos though, and very affordable too! (well under 2000 at wholesale)

travisjb · 11-01-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

Yep, it all depends on the circuit. No probe since I upgraded to the front brembos though, and very affordable too! (well under 2000 at wholesale)

and you can resell your akebonos for $1k, so all in all not terribly expensive

ChrisSlicks · 11-01-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travisjb

and you can resell your akebonos for $1k, so all in all not terribly expensive

Well, that depends on how many potential buyers read this thread! LOL.

travisjb · 11-01-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

Well, that depends on how many potential buyers read this thread! LOL.

true enough ! perhaps the brakes will work better on another vehicle where the ABS sensor is positioned differently or abs computer has different heat thresholds???... in all likelihood, however, nissan set them up the same on the G37's and base model 370s

there was a guy who bought mine and put them on his g37 - i'll invite him to come by and comment on how they're working

Mike · 11-01-2009, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travisjb

and you can resell your akebonos for $1k, so all in all not terribly expensive

Actually, I bought another pair of rears and am using them as cores for g37 caliper powdercoating exchange pogram now

Ken in AZ · 11-04-2009, 05:20 PM

I have the full 370Z Akebono kit on my M45 and participated in a track day event on Firebird's West Track - and they did great with my 4000lb beast. Add me and the car is tipping over 4200lbs! It took me a couple sessions to get warmed up, but the final session I was killing it. I have the Stock 370Z pads, cross drilled and slotted rotors (that I said I would never track with), stainless lines, and they did fine. Coming off the main straight at darn near 95-100mph I would be on the brakes hard and abs would kick on but the feel of the stainless lines made it easy to modulate. I am using DOT4 ATE brake fluid.

The brakes were far exceeding the capabilities of the street tires and felt that with a more controlled suspension and correct tires I could have flogged the braking system more. I would think that the weekend racer could just add stainless lines and some decent fluid and be "ok" on the track. Add in racing tires and a tuned suspension and it could start showing it's weak points.

Oh, and to turn off the ABS can't you just unplug the plug that goes to the ABS actuator under the hood or disconnect one or more of the wheel speed sensors?

ChrisSlicks · 11-04-2009, 06:21 PM

Interesting. Maybe it was easier to exceed the limits of the brakes on the 370Z for some reason. The only difference significant change to my car from stock was wider tires. I never had this problem with the Infiniti, those brakes just worked better and better as they got hot, and that was with the basic single piston floating caliper.

I actually couldn't find the ABS actuator in this car, the engine bay is packed so tightly that it's hard to see anything. I did think about disconnecting an wheel speed sensor so that the ABS system would disable itself but they didn't put the plug anywhere convenient.

imag · 11-04-2009, 09:15 PM

This is frustrating. I was taking it reasonably easy on my brakes - although my instructor kept trying to get me to brake later - and my pedal started getting a bit softish about 20 minutes into a 1/2 hour session. I have the HP+ pads.

On one hand, most events I run just do 20 minute sessions, so I could probably get away with some good two-piece rotors and (hopefully) some cooling on the fronts. On the other hand, I'm trying to do one track day per month with this car, and I figure as I get my speeds up and start diving into the brakes harder, I'm going to hit the limits.

I caught a ride with an instructor, and he was just laying into the brakes on his M3. So nice to have boat anchors...

...but $4K+? Ouch. That kind of money, plus suspension, plus flywheel and clutch, plus a differential or differential cooler... I don't just have a spare $10K hanging around.

ChrisSlicks · 11-04-2009, 09:31 PM

You could probably get away with just fronts, so figure $2K.

The suspension isn't critical right away, you can get away with just sway bars. I wouldn't bother with a flywheel and clutch either unless you are adding power, or you wear the current one out.

imag · 11-04-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

You could probably get away with just fronts, so figure $2K.

The suspension isn't critical right away, you can get away with just sway bars. I wouldn't bother with a flywheel and clutch either unless you are adding power, or you wear the current one out.

Yeah - I've been wondering about how bad the balance would be with just fronts. Although the fact that people have been destroying rear rotors with just HP+ pads worries me. I realize that better fronts would lighten the load on the rears to some extent, but I still don't like going to a different setup than what AP or StopTech have engineered. Both companies really care about balance, so I'd tend to trust them if they swap both. On the other hand, they are trying to sell brakes...

ChrisSlicks · 11-04-2009, 09:46 PM

The HP+ are too aggressive for the rear of this car in my opinion (inital bite is very hard but then they fade when overheated). If you were to do the fronts only I would either use stock pads in the rear, or a Carbotech compound that's not too aggressive.

Mike · 11-04-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imag

Yeah - I've been wondering about how bad the balance would be with just fronts. Although the fact that people have been destroying rear rotors with just HP+ pads worries me. I realize that better fronts would lighten the load on the rears to some extent, but I still don't like going to a different setup than what AP or StopTech have engineered. Both companies really care about balance, so I'd tend to trust them if they swap both. On the other hand, they are trying to sell brakes...

The balance is fine with Brembos front 6 piston upgrade. I am extremely happy with mine. It uses your stock rotors and just comes with pads, calipers and lines. I get my stuff wholesale, but Lou @ amplified sells the kit for 1800, which is a really good deal and well worth it.

Chris,
My first track day with the car I was running HP+ in front and stock on the rear. I wore the rears completely down to the backing plate in one 20 minute session (little talladega). HP+ rears lasted me 1 day at road atlanta and 1 day at little talladega.
Ferodo DS2500 rears lasted me 3 days at CMP and 1 at Road Atlanta.

For comparison, with the front brembos came with FM1000 pads, which are supposed to be the same compound as the 2500s, I have gotten 5 full days at CMP and Road A, and they will probably make my next two days at Road A before needing replacement. My front rotora rotors however, have all kinds of stress cracks in them.

I've never had anywhere near the issues with brakes on either my 350z or C6, but that could be because I was only doing 1-2 events a year, and early this summer stepped that up to 1-2 per month, so I am driving a lot better now.

11-01-2009, 11:17 AM	#47 (permalink)
ZPirate Track Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 792 Drives: 09' 370Z & 03' 350Z Rep Power: 17	Interesting thread. Somehow I missed it earlier. I am surprised that the Akebonos aren't holding up as good as the Brembos on the 350Z did under heavy use. On paper they seem like good brakes. I am also surprised to hear that the pad surface is smaller than the 350Z Brembos. The brakes on my 03 350Z Touring were not very good. Maybe I should have opted for the Track model. That's why I replaced them with StopTechs. Love the StopTechs. __________________ 2003 Daytona Blue 350Z Touring/Nismo 2009 Platinum Graphite 370Z Touring/Sport (Sold) 2009 BMW 135i/Dinan Stage 2 software upgrade/M3 suspension piecies/Koni Sports/ETS FMIC/Alufelgen SF-71 wheels Last edited by ZPirate; 11-01-2009 at 11:28 AM.

11-01-2009, 02:02 PM	#49 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2186	Yep, it all depends on the circuit. No probe since I upgraded to the front brembos though, and very affordable too! (well under 2000 at wholesale) __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

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11-04-2009, 05:20 PM	#54 (permalink)
Ken in AZ Base Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Maricopa AZ Posts: 35 Drives: M45 2006 Rep Power: 263	I have the full 370Z Akebono kit on my M45 and participated in a track day event on Firebird's West Track - and they did great with my 4000lb beast. Add me and the car is tipping over 4200lbs! It took me a couple sessions to get warmed up, but the final session I was killing it. I have the Stock 370Z pads, cross drilled and slotted rotors (that I said I would never track with), stainless lines, and they did fine. Coming off the main straight at darn near 95-100mph I would be on the brakes hard and abs would kick on but the feel of the stainless lines made it easy to modulate. I am using DOT4 ATE brake fluid. The brakes were far exceeding the capabilities of the street tires and felt that with a more controlled suspension and correct tires I could have flogged the braking system more. I would think that the weekend racer could just add stainless lines and some decent fluid and be "ok" on the track. Add in racing tires and a tuned suspension and it could start showing it's weak points. Oh, and to turn off the ABS can't you just unplug the plug that goes to the ABS actuator under the hood or disconnect one or more of the wheel speed sensors?

11-04-2009, 06:21 PM	#55 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	Interesting. Maybe it was easier to exceed the limits of the brakes on the 370Z for some reason. The only difference significant change to my car from stock was wider tires. I never had this problem with the Infiniti, those brakes just worked better and better as they got hot, and that was with the basic single piston floating caliper. I actually couldn't find the ABS actuator in this car, the engine bay is packed so tightly that it's hard to see anything. I did think about disconnecting an wheel speed sensor so that the ABS system would disable itself but they didn't put the plug anywhere convenient.

11-04-2009, 09:15 PM	#56 (permalink)
imag Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 446 Drives: up the wall Rep Power: 16	This is frustrating. I was taking it reasonably easy on my brakes - although my instructor kept trying to get me to brake later - and my pedal started getting a bit softish about 20 minutes into a 1/2 hour session. I have the HP+ pads. On one hand, most events I run just do 20 minute sessions, so I could probably get away with some good two-piece rotors and (hopefully) some cooling on the fronts. On the other hand, I'm trying to do one track day per month with this car, and I figure as I get my speeds up and start diving into the brakes harder, I'm going to hit the limits. I caught a ride with an instructor, and he was just laying into the brakes on his M3. So nice to have boat anchors... ...but $4K+? Ouch. That kind of money, plus suspension, plus flywheel and clutch, plus a differential or differential cooler... I don't just have a spare $10K hanging around.

11-04-2009, 09:31 PM	#57 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	You could probably get away with just fronts, so figure $2K. The suspension isn't critical right away, you can get away with just sway bars. I wouldn't bother with a flywheel and clutch either unless you are adding power, or you wear the current one out.

11-04-2009, 09:46 PM	#59 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	The HP+ are too aggressive for the rear of this car in my opinion (inital bite is very hard but then they fade when overheated). If you were to do the fronts only I would either use stock pads in the rear, or a Carbotech compound that's not too aggressive.