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Originally Posted by BanningZ
Okay, A: when you lump places like California, and NYC together as "very liberal" you lump the rest of the country into the other category ie. Oregon.
My home is not vastly different than NYC, California, Canada or any other state for that matter. I would argue that Texas isn't that much different either. I've been there and I like it. Houston is a great city.
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I specifically spelled out California and NYC because those localities have gun laws on the books that would never fly in most of the rest of the country (for that matter, Chicago and Washington, DC are the other two big names on that list).
AFAIK, Oregon doesn't have bad gun laws. Bad gun laws do come from the liberal side of the fence. So from my perspective, my short list of "places with bad gun laws and generally bad attitudes towards guns", which also happens to be a pretty concise list of "the most liberal places in the country" is pretty ok.
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C: Don't take offense as I was not calling anyone a Gun toting redneck. I was saying that certain comments can make people in other countries who are viewing our country from the outside in think that we are gun toting rednecks. Stereotypes are real and most often incorrect. The world stereotypes Americans as fat, lazy, uneducated and gun crazy. We need to take caution when addressing issues like this because we want to remove stereotypes not reinforce them.
When you make a comment like: It gives the outside world the impression that our country is taken over by criminals and gun toting rednecks. It wasn't an attack and if it was it would be pretty hypocritical because as stated before I am a gun owner.
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First off, let's cover the "redneck" issue. It's basically the equivalent of the N-word, but it's for poor white people. Believe me, if you threw around the black equivalent as casually as you have "redneck" so far, you'd be banned in a heartbeat. It's an offensive race/class-slur, do you get that?
Second, I think it's actually *you* who are advancing the idea that anyone who carries a gun in this country and isn't a cop is either a criminal, or a "fat, lazy, uneducated redneck", and/or "running around afraid of the government and crazy criminals". You also imply that carrying a wepaon is irresponsible. You're painting a very nasty picture of people who choose to carry here, and it's irrational and baseless. Licensed concealed carry permit-holders, regardless of the state they live in, tend to be among the most upstanding and responsible citizens in their area. They're professionals, they've never committed major crimes, they've subjected themselves to extensive background checks, etc. I feel comfortable speaking on their behalf because I'm one of these many upstanding citizens.
Now, on to your specific misstatements about guns in the US..
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BanningZ: The violence in our country is in no way to a point, nor has it been, where we all need guns to fight off the hordes of criminals.
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Copied from the gun facts page at:
QUICK GUN FACTS:
FACT: Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are Prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually ever fired.
* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.
FACT: Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times- more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.
* Fall 1995, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology
You don't think the use of a gun every 13 seconds on average to prevent a crime indicates a crime level that justifies carrying a gun?
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BanningZ: Secondly where are you getting your statistics for violence reducing when more people have guns?
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FACT: When citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons:
* Murder rates drop 8%
* Rape rates fall 5%
* Aggravated assaults drop 7%
More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right -to -carry laws.
TYPE OF CRIME HOW MUCH HIGHER IN RESTRICTIVE STATES
Violent Crime
81% higher
Murder
.. 86% higher
Rape
25% higher
Assault
82% higher
Robbery
.. 105% higher
Auto Theft
.. 60% higher
* John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S. from 1977 through 1992. During this time, ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the U.S. would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults- and would have saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.
I could go on with the quotes, but it will get long-winded. If you want more data, head to
GunCite: gun control and Second Amendment issues, and check out the statistics info on the right-hand side of the page (the left side is mostly about constitutional and legal issues). Specifically, these are good ones:
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense?
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff.html