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Originally Posted by Davey
You're stretching the dollars a little.
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Maybe a bit, but not quite as much as you think, especially if we're looking at it from the overall sports car package.
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A Miata starts at $25K, the FR-S $26K, and the Z at 30K, rounding up. And, the Corvette starts at $55K, which is $13K more than the NISMO.
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If you consider the full package of amenities, the Miata Club at $28,600 has roughly the exact equipment as a Sport Tech Z at $37,070 (except more updated) - nearly $10k. I don't know many people that want the base equipment in either car (which is VERY base in the Z for today's standards - a radio with 2 speakers and a USB port as a prime example.)
As far as the BRZ, I refreshed myself a bit on Subaru's site, and I'll concede there. I've made the argument that the BRZ is borderline worthless compared to the Z in the past, and I'll stand by that rather than trying to use it to back my case in this particular argument. **** that car.
On the other end of the argument, the Vette at $55,400 comes with Brembos and Bose along with the updated infotainment that you'd expect in a car at that price, and it takes a $45,490 Nismo Tech to get closest, package for package.
Not trying to muddy your point - your approach is fine. Just clarifying my approach.
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I don't know about you, but I'm not that comfortable throwing the word "only" in front of $13K when I'm talking about relatively useless depreciating assets like 2-seat cars that probably can't function as anything other than a weekend toy very effectively. Not that you did, but, point being, $10K is a lot of ******* money to most people.
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That is an exceptionally fair point to the front end of the argument. For the NISMO/Vette side of it, not so much. If you're in the market for a $45k NISMO, I don't see how you don't at least consider pricing a Vette, especially since there are incentives out there on the Stingrays. (RANT: I don't know that I spend $41,990 on a NISMO and don't at least think about a Tech trim so I can get "tech" that comes standard in a $19k Sentra - this might be a different converstation if Nissan didn't just throw in the tech at the $41k pricing.)
I know you could work a dealer on the price of a new Z, but at that level, why wouldn't you consider the Vette? Sure there's budgeting a buyer needs to consider, but that's where the Z is running into trouble on the top end of its offerings- it's too close to a piece of the market where the majority of its buyers care
less about a $10k price difference at this level of car. My point is that the Z doesn't have what it takes to play in that space and retain a significant portion of the market.
Finally, if you're shopping $50k sports cars and you're whining about $10k, go home. You're drunk. Maybe you need to stay around $30k. Or maybe you don't need a sports car.
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Does a Z "do" 4K more than an FR-S? Or $5K more than a Miata?
Does a Z do everything you need for $23K less than a Corvette?
Is the NISMO worth $10K more than a base Z, even though it isn't actually faster?
These are subjective questions, but my answer is "Yes."
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See bolded text. However, here, you're admitting that a base Z is nearly worthless to consider in the scope of this argument. Allow me to elaborate...
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Further, consider the Cayman, which costs a little more than $20K more than the 370Z and has a slower 0-60 time. How can Porsche justify that kind of performance to dollar ratio? Why wouldn't you just buy a Corvette instead, for the same money? I guess *you* would, but I would not.
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You make too many assumptions. It's about the
package. The entire argument is about the
package of each car.
1) Because Porsche. Neither Nissan nor Chevrolet compare to the overall fit and finish you get with a car that comes from a company that has never even dabbled in things like economy cars or full sized trucks. Porsche makes sports cars. The end. The Corvette is nice... the Z is nice... but if you're a sports car connoisseur, it's a Porsche.
2) If all there is to look at is the 0-60 time, I'm surprised there aren't more muscle cars around here. The Cayman does everything else better than the Z at the base model level (even when compared to the sport Z). It's lighter and boasts nearly a tenth of a g better in lateral acceleration (0.99 vs 1.06). It's faster through the slalom at a couple MPH as well. Equip the PDK transmission, and that takes care of the 0-60 deficiency. Like I always preach... it's the PACKAGE. Do we even need to talk about fit and finish here? The NISMO's interior barely knocks on the door of a base Cayman. I imagine visibility and seating position are things to consider in a performance car... both of which are better in the Cayman.
Plus, you'd compare a base Z, complete with open differential, sissy brakes, and terrible tires to a base Cayman, which has none of those things? Let's not reach too far here.
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The Z needs to be improved, but it's still a good value vs. the Camaro and Mustang if you want a car that feels like a sports car and not a fat tub of V8 boat for your $30K (I've driven the new Mustang and it's great but it's no Z), given that you don't really care that you're a few 10ths slower in the quarter mile. It's still a good value compared to the Corvette and Cayman because it provides some of the experience of a powerful sports car for tens of thousands less. It's still a good value compared to the Miata and FR-S because it provides some of the experience of an inexpensive driver-focused car without being underpowered.
I'm not really sure what more you could expect for $30K.
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A 2016 Camaro SS (at the same price of a Sport Tech Z) boasts better braking, better acceleration, better roadholding, and better tech for the same money. Regardless of the "feel" of the car, these are the numbers, and the numbers don't lie. A 4.0s 0-60, a 12.4s 1/4mi, and a 0.97g roadholding. Stock. Out of a car that outweighs the Z by 400lbs. $37k for $37k.
Even if we stick to your beloved $30k figure, the new V6 Camaro is damned close to the Z, and you only concede on the acceleration and braking, but still retain equal handling ratings while gaining better fuel economy.
This used to be a car that handled like a houseboat and got rocked by a 350Z. That's called evolving your product. Case in point - if the Z has to take a couple years off to get retooled the way the Camaro got retooled, sign me up. Otherwise, the value for dollar of the Z has slipped in the wake of the evolving competition.